Discussion:
Mel Gibson and Opus Dei
(too old to reply)
Craven, Jim
2004-02-25 20:45:09 UTC
Permalink
Here are some links on Gibson's relationship with Opus Dei an
ultra-rightist cult inside the Catholic Church--Skull and Bones of the
Catholic Church. At one prominent Opus Day church in Virginia, the
membership included Scalia, Thomas, Louis Freeh and Robert Hanssen (the
FBI master spy). This cult, founded by an outright fascist priest
Josemaria Escriva de Balaguer, favored by JP II, is an extremely well
connected and very fascist network. Part of their rituals, involves,
every week, putting a belt with spikes around the legs to inflict
pain--there is a strong S & M/Bondage element in all of their rituals.

http://www.odan.org/


Here is Mr. "Super Christian/Catholic" Gibson in action in part of an
interview for Playboy:



PLAYBOY: We take it that you're not particularly broad-minded when it
comes to issues such as celibacy, abortion, birth control --

GIBSON: People always focus on stuff like that. Those aren't issues.
Those are unquestionable. You don't even argue those points.

PLAYBOY: You don't?

GIBSON: No.

PLAYBOY: What about allowing women to be priests?

GIBSON: No.

PLAYBOY: Why not?

GIBSON: I'll get kicked around for saying it, but men and women are just
different. They're not equal. The same way that you and I are not equal.

PLAYBOY: That's true. You have more money.

GIBSON: You might be more intelligent, or you might have a bigger dick.
Whatever it is, nobody's equal. And men and women are not equal. I have
tremendous respect for women. I love them. I don't know why they want to
step down. Women in my family are the center of things. An good things
emanate from them. The guys usually mess up.

PLAYBOY: That's quite a generalization.

GIBSON: Women are just different. Their sensibilities are different.

PLAYBOY: Any examples?

GIBSON: I had a female business partner once. Didn't work.

PLAYBOY: Why not?

GIBSON: She was a cunt.

PLAYBOY: And the feminists dare to put you down!

GIBSON: Feminists don't like me, and I don't like them. I don't get
their point. I don't know why feminists have it out for me, but that's
their problem, not mine.

[...]

PLAYBOY: How do you feel about Bill Clinton?

GIBSON: He's a low-level opportunist. Somebody's telling him what to do.

PLAYBOY: Who?

GIBSON: The guy who's in charge isn't going to be the front man, ever.
If I were going to be calling the shots I wouldn't make an appearance.
Would you? You'd end up losing your head. It happens all the time. All
those monarchs. Ifhe's the leader, he's getting shafted. What's keeping
him in there? Why would you stay for that kind of abuse? Except that he
has to stay for some reason. He was meant to be the president 30 years
ago, if you ask me.

PLAYBOY: He was just 18 then.

GIBSON: Somebody knew then that he would be president now.

PLAYBOY: You really believe that?

GIBSON: I really believe that. He was a Rhodes scholar, right? Just like
Bob Hawke. Do you know what a Rhodes scholar is? Cecil Rhodes
established the Rhodes scholarship for those young men and women who
want to strive for a new world order. Have you heard that before? George
Bush? CIA? Really, it's Marxism, but it just doesn't want to call itself
that. Karl had the right idea, but he was too forward about saying what
it was. Get power but don't admit to it. Do it by stealth. There's a
whole trend of Rhodes scholars who will be politicians around the world.

PLAYBOY: This certainly sounds like a paranoid sense of world history.
You must be quite an assassination buff.

GIBSON: Oh, fuck. A lot of those guys pulled a boner. There's something
to do with the Federal Reserve that Lincoln did, Kennedy did and Reagan
tried. I can't remember what it was, my dad told me about it. Everyone
who did this particular thing that would have fixed the economy got
undone. Anyway, I'll end up dead if I keep talking shit.

(By the way, both of Gibson's parents are Holocaust deniers.)


James M. Craven
Blackfoot Name: Omahkohkiaayo-i'poyi
Professor/Consultant,Economics;Business Division Chair
Clark College, 1800 E. McLoughlin Blvd.
Vancouver, WA. USA 98663
Tel: (360) 992-2283; Fax: (360) 992-2863
http://www.home.earthlink.net/~blkfoot5
Employer has no association with private/protected opinion
"Who controls the past controls the future. Who controls the present
controls the past." (George Orwell)
"...every anticipation of results which are first to be proved seems
disturbing to me...(Karl Marx, "Grundrisse")
FREE LEONARD PELTIER!!
Ed George
2004-02-25 21:11:46 UTC
Permalink
On Opus Dei, here's a snippet from the note I wrote on Spanish state
politics last June (it's in the archives).

'Aside from the traditional Catholic Church, which in Spain is in part
financed through the public tax system (direct payments to the Church in
2001 amounted to some approximately ?120 million, not including state
funding for religious teachers in public schools, military and hospital
chaplains, and other indirect assistance), we also have to take note of
the influence of the fundamentalist and highly secretive sect Opus Dei,
which enjoys a heavy influence in governmental circles. The Defence
Minister Federico Trillo, for example, is an Opus Dei 'supernumerary', a
member of the organisation's elite who tithe it a share of their
earnings. Other prominent Opus supporters include Spain's Attorney
General Jes?s Cardenal, the former police chief Juan Cotino, and three
former ministers, Isabel Tocino, Jos? Manuel Romay and Loyola de
Palacio, the last of these now a European Commissioner. The present
Foreign Minister, the deeply strange Ana Palacio, attended last year's
canonisation of Opus Dei founder Jos? Mar?a Escriva in Rome. Aznar
himself sent two of his children to Opus Dei schools and his wife, Ana
Botella, a political figure in her own right, is at least openly
sympathetic, if not an actual member.'
Craven, Jim
2004-02-25 22:16:12 UTC
Permalink
-----Original Message-----
From: marxism-bounces at lists.econ.utah.edu [mailto:marxism-bounces at lists.econ.utah.edu] On Behalf Of Ed George
Sent: Wednesday, February 25, 2004 1:12 PM
To: marxmail
Subject: [Marxism] Re: Mel Gibson and Opus Dei


On Opus Dei, here's a snippet from the note I wrote on Spanish state politics last June (it's in the archives).

'Aside from the traditional Catholic Church, which in Spain is in part financed through the public tax system (direct payments to the Church in 2001 amounted to some approximately ?120 million, not including state funding for religious teachers in public schools, military and hospital chaplains, and other indirect assistance), we also have to take note of the influence of the fundamentalist and highly secretive sect Opus Dei, which enjoys a heavy influence in governmental circles. The Defence Minister Federico Trillo, for example, is an Opus Dei 'supernumerary', a member of the organisation's elite who tithe it a share of their earnings. Other prominent Opus supporters include Spain's Attorney General Jes?s Cardenal, the former police chief Juan Cotino, and three former ministers, Isabel Tocino, Jos? Manuel Romay and Loyola de Palacio, the last of these now a European Commissioner. The present Foreign Minister, the deeply strange Ana Palacio, attended last year's canonisation of Opus Dei founder Jos? Mar?a Escriva in Rome. Aznar himself sent two of his children to Opus Dei schools and his wife, Ana Botella, a political figure in her own right, is at least openly sympathetic, if not an actual member.'


There are different classes of membership in Opus Dei:


Numerary members pledge to remain celibate and generally live in Opus Dei houses. They commit their entire salaries to Opus Dei, submit incoming and outgoing mail to their directors, and practice various forms of corporal mortification, including use of the cilice, a spiked chain worn around the thigh, and use of the discipline, a knotted rope for whipping.

Supernumerary members may be married, and live with their families. They follow the same "plan of life" as the numeraries, but generally do not know about many of the details of numerary life. They contribute large portions of their income to Opus Dei, often at the expense of their local parishes.

Numerary priests join Opus Dei as lay members, but are then hand-picked by Opus Dei superiors to become priests of Opus Dei. Numerary priests hold the top government positions in Opus Dei. Many hold important positions in the Vatican. Each Opus Dei house is assigned a numerary priest, whose responsibilities include saying Mass, hearing confessions and giving spiritual direction to the Opus Dei members.

Associate Opus Dei members also pledge celibacy, but they generally do not live in Opus Dei houses. They include people who have not acquired university degrees, or who must remain with their families for personal reasons.

Numerary assistants are women who pledge celibacy, and are responsible for the care and cleaning of all Opus Dei residences.

Cooperators of Opus Dei provide financial support, but are not considered members of Opus Dei. Unlike Opus Dei members, cooperators do not have to be Catholic.


Opus Dei members carefully stage "vocational crises" at vulnerable moments in recruits' lives. The recruits are often told that God calls people at certain times in their lives, and if they say "no" they will never receive God's grace in their lives because they are "on the wrong track."

Opus Dei members often tell their "friends" that failure to follow a calling to Opus Dei will lead not only to a life of misery and discontent, but possibly to eternal damnation.

Opus Dei numeraries are expected to hand over their entire salaries to Opus Dei, and generally may not hold their own bank accounts. The numeraries are told to use money as if they were the mother in charge of a large and poor family. They ask for the money they need each week and are then required to report how it was spent to the penny. Opus Dei does not provide any financial report that indicates how the members' money is spent.

Both incoming and outgoing personal mail is generally read by the Directors of each Opus Dei residence, without the knowledge or consent of family and friends.

Reading material is strictly controlled, as are television viewing, listening to the radio, and other forms of recreation and entertainment.

Opus Dei numeraries notify their Directors of (and secure permission for) their comings and goings.

Opus Dei numeraries are required to practice corporal mortification such as the use of a cilice (a spiked chain worn around the thigh), flagellation, and sleeping on the floor or on boards.

Opus Dei numeraries are required to confess weekly and are strongly discouraged from confessing to a non-Opus Dei priest.

Opus Dei numeraries typically may not attend events which are not conducive to proselytizing, such as athletic games, theater, concerts, movies, etc. In the rare instances when they may attend these events, permission must be secured from the Opus Dei directors.

Opus Dei members are enjoined to confess even their slightest doubts to Opus Dei priests and/or Spiritual Directors; otherwise, "the mute devil takes over in the soul."
Alienation From Families

Communication to family about involvement with Opus Dei is limited and even discouraged.

Opus Dei teaches individuals (despite their ages) that it is acceptable and even advantageous to leave parents and loved ones out of the decision-making process because "they will not understand." Most parents learn of their child's lifetime commitment to Opus Dei months and even years later. Many times, parents do not realize their children have joined because the numeraries are told to remain in university residences and do not move into centers designated exclusively for numeraries, so as not to raise any suspicions. Gradually, the bond of trust between child and parent is broken.

Display of pictures of loved ones is discouraged, not by rule, but by subtle example.
Carrol Cox
2004-02-25 22:35:14 UTC
Permalink
Can someone who thinks the Pope is very close to being the anti-christ,
as Gibson does, _also_ be close to an organization that same pope
favors? Let's not be more ridiculous than we have to be.

This searching for conspiratorial groups (even when partly true) is a
serious deflection from the tasks of building a mass resistance movement
to capital.

Carrol
Craven, Jim
2004-02-26 18:11:16 UTC
Permalink
Can someone who thinks the Pope is very close to being the anti-christ,
as Gibson does, _also_ be close to an organization that same pope
favors? Let's not be more ridiculous than we have to be.

This searching for conspiratorial groups (even when partly true) is a
serious deflection from the tasks of building a mass resistance movement
to capital.

Carrol


Response: I have heard, but have never seen any quotes from Gibson
calling the pope the anti-Christ (I prefer lying hypocrite, megalomaniac
and cia operative myself) and it may be as both his parents are
Holocaust deniers, ultra-rightists and perhaps even anti-papists. But
Gibson is definitely on a new page now as he is indeed a member of Opus
Dei (I just thought perhaps it was all the whips-n-chains and bondage
stuff Opus Dei is into that perhaps influenced Gibson's focus on
salacious and gratuitous violence of the cruxifiction).

Now I am wide open on suggestions on "What is to be Done" to build a
mass resistance movement to capital and ask that you refer me to some of
your own writings and examples of concrete activism on your part in this
area. If you think that researching and exposing the some of the
networks, masks, institutions, fronts, SSAs, illusions, techniques of
social systems engineering, etc., through which capitalist individually
and collectively operate and rule is a "serious deflection" from the
tasks of building a mass resistance movement to capital, or is nothing
but "conspiracy theory", please enlighten us all what are the essential
tasks, what is your concrete preparation and contributions to be able to
comment on this subject, and what would you propose. For example,
someone might just ask what do you mean by "capital"? In addition to the
usual jargon and formulaics (capital is a social relation not a thing)
what will you offer beyond the usual generalities?

I for one have found this to be fertile ground for leveraging concerns
with certain issues (admittedly not particularly significant) into
concern with other issues that are particularly significant. But hey,
I'm always willing to learn--but only from those actually doing the
doing and not merely talking about what others should or should not be
doing while themselves demonstrating nothing about what is to be done
other than typing a few pithy lines on a keyboard in a comfortable
office or home.

Jim C.
Paul H. Dillon
2004-02-26 19:08:24 UTC
Permalink
Carrol,

I beg to disagree about how we deal with the activities of Opus Dei. I
believe that exposing them for the reactionary, counter-revolutionary
organization they are is very important. The mere fact that this movie is
pulling their name into the open might lead people to explore their leading
roles in aiding repressive governments throughout the world, their
unswerving opposition to Liberation Theology and persecution of its
practitioners, and countless other reactionary activities. Now Gibson is
winning them converts. Does one need say more?

Paul


----- Original Message -----
From: "Craven, Jim" <JCraven at clark.edu>
To: "Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition"
<marxism at lists.econ.utah.edu>
Sent: Thursday, February 26, 2004 10:11 AM
Subject: [Marxism] RE: Mel Gibson and Opus Dei



Can someone who thinks the Pope is very close to being the anti-christ,
as Gibson does, _also_ be close to an organization that same pope
favors? Let's not be more ridiculous than we have to be.

This searching for conspiratorial groups (even when partly true) is a
serious deflection from the tasks of building a mass resistance movement
to capital.

Carrol


Response: I have heard, but have never seen any quotes from Gibson
calling the pope the anti-Christ (I prefer lying hypocrite, megalomaniac
and cia operative myself) and it may be as both his parents are
Holocaust deniers, ultra-rightists and perhaps even anti-papists. But
Gibson is definitely on a new page now as he is indeed a member of Opus
Dei (I just thought perhaps it was all the whips-n-chains and bondage
stuff Opus Dei is into that perhaps influenced Gibson's focus on
salacious and gratuitous violence of the cruxifiction).

Now I am wide open on suggestions on "What is to be Done" to build a
mass resistance movement to capital and ask that you refer me to some of
your own writings and examples of concrete activism on your part in this
area. If you think that researching and exposing the some of the
networks, masks, institutions, fronts, SSAs, illusions, techniques of
social systems engineering, etc., through which capitalist individually
and collectively operate and rule is a "serious deflection" from the
tasks of building a mass resistance movement to capital, or is nothing
but "conspiracy theory", please enlighten us all what are the essential
tasks, what is your concrete preparation and contributions to be able to
comment on this subject, and what would you propose. For example,
someone might just ask what do you mean by "capital"? In addition to the
usual jargon and formulaics (capital is a social relation not a thing)
what will you offer beyond the usual generalities?

I for one have found this to be fertile ground for leveraging concerns
with certain issues (admittedly not particularly significant) into
concern with other issues that are particularly significant. But hey,
I'm always willing to learn--but only from those actually doing the
doing and not merely talking about what others should or should not be
doing while themselves demonstrating nothing about what is to be done
other than typing a few pithy lines on a keyboard in a comfortable
office or home.

Jim C.

_______________________________________________
Marxism mailing list
Marxism at lists.econ.utah.edu
http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/listinfo/marxism
David Quarter
2004-02-27 00:33:22 UTC
Permalink
I mean why fight the fascistic, S.A. apatheid supporting ADL-led
zionist estblishment when you have the heterosexist Mel Gibson
and his 80-plus year "holocaust denying" pups to worry about.

Great strategy comrades!




From: "Paul H. Dillon" <illonph at pacbell.net>
Post by Paul H. Dillon
Carrol,
I beg to disagree about how we deal with the activities of Opus Dei. I
believe that exposing them for the reactionary, counter-revolutionary
organization they are is very important. The mere fact that this movie is
pulling their name into the open might lead people to explore their leading
roles in aiding repressive governments throughout the world, their
unswerving opposition to Liberation Theology and persecution of its
practitioners, and countless other reactionary activities. Now Gibson is
winning them converts. Does one need say more?
Paul
----- Original Message -----
From: "Craven, Jim" <JCraven at clark.edu>
Can someone who thinks the Pope is very close to being the anti-christ,
as Gibson does, _also_ be close to an organization that same pope
favors? Let's not be more ridiculous than we have to be.
This searching for conspiratorial groups (even when partly true) is a
serious deflection from the tasks of building a mass resistance movement
to capital.
Carrol
Response: I have heard, but have never seen any quotes from Gibson
calling the pope the anti-Christ (I prefer lying hypocrite, megalomaniac
and cia operative myself) and it may be as both his parents are
Holocaust deniers, ultra-rightists and perhaps even anti-papists. But
Gibson is definitely on a new page now as he is indeed a member of Opus
Dei (I just thought perhaps it was all the whips-n-chains and bondage
stuff Opus Dei is into that perhaps influenced Gibson's focus on
salacious and gratuitous violence of the cruxifiction).
Now I am wide open on suggestions on "What is to be Done" to build a
mass resistance movement to capital and ask that you refer me to some of
your own writings and examples of concrete activism on your part in this
area. If you think that researching and exposing the some of the
networks, masks, institutions, fronts, SSAs, illusions, techniques of
social systems engineering, etc., through which capitalist individually
and collectively operate and rule is a "serious deflection" from the
tasks of building a mass resistance movement to capital, or is nothing
but "conspiracy theory", please enlighten us all what are the essential
tasks, what is your concrete preparation and contributions to be able to
comment on this subject, and what would you propose. For example,
someone might just ask what do you mean by "capital"? In addition to the
usual jargon and formulaics (capital is a social relation not a thing)
what will you offer beyond the usual generalities?
I for one have found this to be fertile ground for leveraging concerns
with certain issues (admittedly not particularly significant) into
concern with other issues that are particularly significant. But hey,
I'm always willing to learn--but only from those actually doing the
doing and not merely talking about what others should or should not be
doing while themselves demonstrating nothing about what is to be done
other than typing a few pithy lines on a keyboard in a comfortable
office or home.
Jim C.
M. Junaid Alam
2004-02-27 02:17:10 UTC
Permalink
[ This post was forwarded from the old Panix account. Please make a
note of the new address for marxmail submission:
marxism at lists.econ.utah.edu ]


David Quarter:

"I mean why fight the fascistic, S.A. apatheid supporting ADL-led
zionist estblishment when you have the heterosexist Mel Gibson
and his 80-plus year "holocaust denying" pups to worry about.

Great strategy comrades!"

The striking thing about stupidity is that it is so common that it goes
uncalled upon - at least for a while.

So here comes Mr. Quarter, obsessed as always in propounding/discovering
everything Zionist, even if it involves URLs to neo-Nazi websites, going
on his verbal springboard against the ADL as - hold your breath -
"fascistic".

Well, that's original. It's hard to see how jumping up and down against
the ADL is an effective response to or analysis of the Gibson film. In
fact, it is a total non-response.

This is typical of an obsessed individual. In passing the other day I
note Michael Walzer, proponent of 'just war' theory, writes for Dissent.
Mr. Quarter bizarrely takes this opportunity to imply my mother is a
whore, thereby missing the point that Walzer supported the Israeli
invasion of S. Lebanon.

Whether Mr. Quarter is more obsessed with brushing aside Zionists to
speculate on whores or brushing aside Holocaust Revisionism to attack
Zionists is not clear, but at least we now all know that the ADL is
"fascistic."

How impressive.



~~~~~~~
PLEASE clip all extraneous text before replying to a message.
mkaradjis
2004-02-27 08:14:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Quarter
I obviously find this type of defeatism quite ironic when coming
from a Marxist, but what with your "whores" comment and the good
wise Professor's "with all due respect to whores" and "those dam
white academics" remarks, and Louis P giving equal time on Marx-
mail for holocaust revisionists Michael K,
I obviously find 'holocaust revisionist' quite ironic coming from someone as
completely obsessed with some evil Jewish plot against the world and all
things decent and Christian as you are. Having a bad hair day?

Michael Karadjis
--

David Quarter
2004-02-27 05:38:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by M. Junaid Alam
[ This post was forwarded from the old Panix account. Please make a
marxism at lists.econ.utah.edu ]
"I mean why fight the fascistic, S.A. apatheid supporting ADL-led
zionist estblishment when you have the heterosexist Mel Gibson
and his 80-plus year "holocaust denying" pups to worry about.
Great strategy comrades!"
The striking thing about stupidity is that it is so common that it goes
uncalled upon - at least for a while.>>>>
Yawn...
Post by M. Junaid Alam
So here comes Mr. Quarter, obsessed as always in propounding/discovering
everything Zionist, even if it involves URLs to neo-Nazi websites, going
on his verbal springboard against the ADL as - hold your breath -
"fascistic".
Well, that's original. It's hard to see how jumping up and down against
the ADL is an effective response to or analysis of the Gibson film. In
fact, it is a total non-response.>>>>
Firstly,

just to respond to your comment that I was calling your mother a
"whore". No. I wasn't calling your mother anything of the sort! I was
alluding to whether you would repeat your misogynistic remark in
the presence of your mother?

If not -- as I imagine you wouldn't-- what makes it alright to utter it
here?


Secondly, yes I consider the ADL extremely dangerous and
threatening, definitely more so then Mel Gibson.

That Mel and the supposed "right wing" of the Catholic church have
f**ked up views about sexuality isn't IMO what Marxists should be
concerned with (at least, not at the moment). When Mel Gibson
and his followers start influencing American foreign policy, start
urging government to pass laws that would criminalize dissent
against Israel, I'll start focusing my energy towards Mel Gibson and
his band of merry men.

Until that time, I'll worry more about concrete issues such as the
current ADL inspired witchhunt against the same Mel Gibson.

It's like being attacked from one end by a 200 pound body
builder/kick boxing champ and on the another end by the 90 pound
reigning world chess champion.

Who would you focus your energy on?

Obviously, it's not revealing to point out the fascistic
mentality/nature of the ADL, a different breed of fascism to the
catholic church. Yet, it is just PLAIN STUPIDITY to be worring
about what the right wing of catholicism is up to when a far more
powerful group with the mite to back up its fascistic ideas is
flexiing its weight..

The catholic bhurch is a patsy of the power elite,

The Zionist elite is a part and parcel of the US power
establishment...

Obviously if you don't draw the connection between what's being
happening to Mel Gibson
with this ongoing
anti-Passion of Christ "debate" and the types ADL-inspired/zionist
establishment witchunts of the past and present against the llikes
of the catholic church more generlaly, against Marxism and the
left, against anti zionists Jews, against certain Blacks and
minority groups (e.g., through affirmative action policies) and
anyone else they (the ADL) consider stepping out of bounds of
what the ADL defines as permissable debate/expression/posturing
and therefore as a threat to their authority/power/existence, I''ll be
speaking to the wind.

FYI: a good 80% percent of the criticism being directed towards
the Passion of Christ film has enamated from the ADL and the
Simon Weiselthal Centre and other powerful players within
Jewish/Zionist establishment. Another 10 or 15 percent has come
from individuals with obvious sympathies to zionism/Jewish
Nationalism, i.e., Israel, for example, Rabbi Michael Lerner from
Tikkum and the self styled sexologist Rabbi Smuel Boteach. From
what I can see, very little criticism of Gibson has enamated from
persons detached from the ZIonist lobby/or with zionistic
sympathies (if you find more than ten articles from such individuals,
please send them them over!). And very few zionists have come out
in support of Gibson (I know of one who's been outspoken in the
media. His name is Michael Medved and he is rear bread of
Zionists).

Call it obsession, call it paranoia ( or whatever you like), but this
concerns me.

ANd then when I hear a Marxist state the following:


(to paraphrase Louis P.), "well, I'll probably go to see the movie,
BUT here's something you guys should know about traditional
catholicism?"

and nobody utters even a single sentence in response,

I get even more concerned (and perhaps even a tad more paranoid
than I was before!).

I imagine what Louis P. implied by his remark is that what's
currently being done to Mel Gibson is probably not right, but
hey...he's a right wing bigot so let's just turn a blind eye and let the
ADL carry out its business.

Quite similar to: what's being currently done to Milosevic in the
Hague is bad, but's Milosevic is a bad guy so might as well sit on
my rear end and engage people in meaningless debates about,
say, what Mel Gibson's motivations were for writing the Passion of
Christ, and let Carla DeL Ponte and the Hague Inqusitors do their
thing...

I obviously find this type of defeatism quite ironic when coming
from a Marxist, but what with your "whores" comment and the good
wise Professor's "with all due respect to whores" and "those dam
white academics" remarks, and Louis P giving equal time on Marx-
mail for holocaust revisionists Michael K, his side-kick Les E. and
the Lippman Brothers to voice their concerns,

nothing really suprises me anyone...


DOQ
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