Discussion:
[Fwd: Katz and Zamora]
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Louis Proyect
2004-02-10 17:59:28 UTC
Permalink
-------- Original Message --------
Subject: Katz and Zamora
Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2004 11:53:27 -0300
From: Mat?as Scaglione <mdscaglione at yahoo.com.ar>
To: <lnp3 at panix.com>
Can't say that this comes as a big surprise. Katz is a leader of the
Autonomy and Freedom (Autonomia y Libertad) movement in Argentina, which
was founded by Luis Zamora, an ex-Morenoite who became converted to
autonomist-Zapatismo. They've never run into a state anywhere that can
live up to their satisfaction.
The name of the party is Autodeterminaci?n y Libertad
(Self-determination and Freedom, www.caminamos.com.ar), and I do not see
Katz as a leader of it but as an "intellectual support". He is the
leader of a group called Economist of the Left (Economistas de Izquierda
(EDI),http://www.geocities.com/economistas_de_izquierda/ ), to my view a
sectarian, narrow-minded and "economicist" bunch of guys. Despite these
little details, I agree with your opinion about Claudio Katz. It is
annoying how popular is this person in leftist circles of the USA.

Mat?as
--
The Marxism list: www.marxmail.org
Johannes Schneider
2004-02-11 09:46:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by Louis Proyect
Can't say that this comes as a big surprise. Katz is a leader of the
Autonomy and Freedom (Autonomia y Libertad) movement in Argentina,
which
was founded by Luis Zamora, an ex-Morenoite who became converted to
autonomist-Zapatismo. They've never run into a state anywhere that can
live up to their satisfaction.
The name of the party is Autodeterminaci?n y Libertad
(Self-determination and Freedom, www.caminamos.com.ar), and I do not see
Katz as a leader of it but as an "intellectual support". He is the
leader of a group called Economist of the Left (Economistas de Izquierda
(EDI),http://www.geocities.com/economistas_de_izquierda/ ), to my view a
sectarian, narrow-minded and "economicist" bunch of guys. Despite these
little details, I agree with your opinion about Claudio Katz. It is
annoying how popular is this person in leftist circles of the USA.
Mat?as
Actually I do not care much about one sectarian calling the other
sectarian, Morenoite, Autonomist or whatever, but what I care about are
arguments and I had the impression that this what this list is made for
and not about cheap jokes where to get satisfaction from or not.

In the article I quoted
http://www.alcaabajo.cu/sitio/stop_ftaa/mercosur_and_the_ftaa_200104.htm
Katz argues that Brazil and Argentina lack coordinated policies in order
to confront US-imperialism and instead of challenging neoliberalism they
are making concessions to it.

Katz may be wrong, but name-calling does not reject his arguments.

Johannes
Louis Proyect
2004-02-11 15:02:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by Johannes Schneider
In the article I quoted
http://www.alcaabajo.cu/sitio/stop_ftaa/mercosur_and_the_ftaa_200104.htm
Katz argues that Brazil and Argentina lack coordinated policies in order
to confront US-imperialism and instead of challenging neoliberalism they
are making concessions to it.
Katz may be wrong, but name-calling does not reject his arguments.
Katz's article outlines 3 distinct political actors:

1. US imperialism, which pushes the FTAA.

2. Kirchner/Lula and their allies, who are promoting a 'social' Mercosur
more responsive to the needs of the poor.

3. A anti-imperialist front that would "halt the payment of the foreign
debt", etc.

Of the three positions, I favor the third but it is important to draw a
contrast between positions 1 and 2. Yesterday, when you stated that it
is of no consequence that the FMLN wins the elections in El Salvador, it
seemed obvious to me that you would not. We have political differences
that no amount of wrangling over Katz's article will resolve.

I view the relationship between the Brazilian bourgeoisie, US
imperialism, Europe and major 3rd world powers such as India and China
as a complex one. It would seem to me that Marxists should hail any
initiative, no matter how faltering, by the Brazilian or Argentine
*nation* to carve out an independent development path, even if it is
capitalist.

In the final analysis, socialism will be far more successful in
guaranteeing independence and social justice, but I would not sneer at a
potential FMLN electoral victory.

The Houston Chronicle
August 24, 2003, Sunday 4 STAR EDITION
Leftist's plans for El Salvador worry U.S.

BYLINE: MARIKA LYNCH

DATELINE: SAN SALVADOR, El Salvador

SAN SALVADOR, El Salvador - Like any good presidential candidate, Shafik
Handal, former guerrilla, longtime Communist Party leader and friend of
Fidel Castro, is promising change.

"We promise to unite the nation in the construction of a different El
Salvador," Handal said two weeks ago, after the Farabundo Marti National
Liberation Front, or FMLN, the guerrilla group turned political party,
named him as its presidential candidate.

But it is his plans for change that have caused worry here and in
Washington - to reverse many of the free-market initiatives the ruling
conservative ARENA party put in place, to reconsider the privatizations
of public companies, to set up "civil defense committees" that would
protect him from a coup. Even old FMLN brethren say Handal has a streak
of intolerance.

The FMLN's rising popularity - it leads the latest polls for the March
elections - reflects a resurgence of the left in Latin America,
frustrated by a decade of so-called neoliberal reforms that bore little
fruit and propelled Luiz Inacio Lula da Silva, Nestor Kirchner and Hugo
Chavez to the presidencies of Brazil, Argentina and Venezuela.

El Salvador's economy has grown every year since the war ended in 1992,
no small feat in a Central American nation shaken by several
earthquakes, 1998's Hurricane Mitch and the legacies of a civil conflict
that claimed 75,000 lives.

But while President Francisco Flores and his ARENA party have won kudos
in Washington for their free-market policies, some of El Salvador's poor
believe they haven't shared in the wealth. Although the percentage of
the country's 6.3 million people living in poverty shrunk over the last
decade, the actual number of poor grew, according to U.N. figures.

"They've forgotten about what's vital to the people," said Alonso
Martinez, 63, tapping his belly. "The people are still hungry."

Charismatic and confident, Handal remains popular among the poor,
blaming the rich and their "foreign" economic models for the lot of the
impoverished masses. He also is revered for his consistency, calling
himself a communist long after many abandoned the ideology.

But in an interview with the Miami Herald, he insisted that while
communism is still a valued goal, this tiny Central American nation is
not ready for it.

"As a theory, it's an ideal, yes, but I don't consider it pursueable,"
Handal said. Instead he wants to renegotiate the country's foreign debt
and raise taxes for the rich so he can improve schools and the public
health system.

Handal also said that if elected he would encourage foreign investment.
But he also would stop privatizations and review past sales of public
companies, including those in the electricity sector because rates have
risen steeply - moves that may scare off future investors.

He said he doesn't in principle oppose ongoing U.S.-Central American
negotiations for a free trade agreement, but thinks the proposals so far
are unfair to Salvadoran farmers. He wants to see the final agreement
before taking a stance, Handal added.

His government also would keep the U.S. dollar as the country's official
currency - an ARENA decision - but would reintroduce the national
currency, the colon, Handal added.

On an apparent campaign to polish his and the party's image in
Washington, which gave the Salvadoran government hundreds of millions of
dollars in military aid for its fight against Handal's guerrillas in the
1980s, the FMLN recently sent a delegation to visit the State
Department, the Pentagon and congressional leaders.

The governing ARENA party says Handal could only move the country backward.

"Are we going to have a future based on opening and stability, or on
confrontation, and models that have been conquered and broken?" said
Tony Saca, 38, a radio station owner and ARENA's presidential candidate.

Handal, born to Christian Palestinian immigrants, first got involved in
politics at 14, when he joined a successful national strike to oust a
military dictator.

He was later forced into exile twice and became head of the Salvadoran
Communist Party, the last faction of the FMLN to take up arms in the
civil war. During the conflict, Handal was the group's top diplomat. He
has been a legislator for the past six years.
--
The Marxism list: www.marxmail.org
Johannes Schneider
2004-02-11 15:20:56 UTC
Permalink
Am Wed, 11 Feb 2004 10:02:16 -0500 hat Louis Proyect <lnp3 at panix.com>
Yesterday, when you stated that it is of no consequence that the FMLN
wins the elections in El Salvador
Louis,

I am sorry you misunderstood me profoundly. I never intended to say
something idiotic like that. What I meant to say with the "who
cares..."-remark was that no serious anti-communist scare campaign as in
the cold war era is underway. The article you forwarded confirms that:
even the US media acknowledges that the former communists are no longer
pursuing "communism". This clearly contrasts to the sixties, when
social-democrats were potrayed as beeing communiststs.

Johannes
Johannes Schneider
2004-02-11 15:35:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by Louis Proyect
1. US imperialism, which pushes the FTAA.
2. Kirchner/Lula and their allies, who are promoting a 'social' Mercosur
more responsive to the needs of the poor.
3. A anti-imperialist front that would "halt the payment of the foreign
debt", etc.
Of the three positions, I favor the third but it is important to draw a
contrast between positions 1 and 2. [...]
Anyone who does not, would be an idiot. But does this mean an alliance
between 2 and 3 to fight 1 is possible?
I doubt the chance for such an alliance: Given the various ties between
the "national" bourgeoisie and imperialism it strikes me as an utopian
idea. The intentions of the Chilean government to negotiate a seperate
agreement with the US is a sign for that.
Lula's austerity measures (e.g. the pension reform) shows there is little
political space for an alliance between 2 and 3.

Johannes
Nestor Gorojovsky
2004-02-11 21:51:10 UTC
Permalink
Respuesta a: Re: [Marxism] [Fwd: Katz and Zamora
Remitido por: Johannes Schneider
Fecha: Mi?rcoles 11 de Febrero de 2004
Hora: 16:35
*****
Post by Johannes Schneider
Post by Louis Proyect
1. US imperialism, which pushes the FTAA.
2. Kirchner/Lula and their allies, who are promoting a 'social' Mercosur
more responsive to the needs of the poor.
3. A anti-imperialist front that would "halt the payment of the foreign
debt", etc.
Of the three positions, I favor the third but it is important to draw a
contrast between positions 1 and 2. [...]
Anyone who does not, would be an idiot. But does this mean an alliance
between 2 and 3 to fight 1 is possible?
I doubt the chance for such an alliance: Given the various ties between
the "national" bourgeoisie and imperialism it strikes me as an utopian
idea. The intentions of the Chilean government to negotiate a seperate
agreement with the US is a sign for that.
The problem lies in what do you mean by "national" bourgeoisie here.
In fact, in more senses than one Kirchner is beginning to appear as
one of the multiple possibilities for an "alliance between 2 and 3".
The Chilean example is not the best one. When considering a dependent
economy-social formation, the first thing one has to do is to
identify what is the interest of imperialism there. Once you did it,
you have at least half your problems solved. Because you will
certainly find a party (or an array of parties) _within_ the
dependent formation which will defend the interests of imperialism,
either with right-wing or left-wing verbiage.

In Chile, today, the party of imperialism is the party of copper and
a few agrarian exports, which account for 50% of the country's
economy. Not every bourgeois in Chile depends on this, and a
"bourgeois" model, a "capitalist" model towards independence,
certainly does not. The current Chilean govm't, no matter how
'socialist' it still loves to call itself, follows the imperialist
path, does not discuss at all the global insertion of dependent
Chile, and in this sense works against, say, the fraction of the
bourgeoisie that would thrive in a vibrant domestic market.

The Arg. and Br. governments are not "social", they are simply
*bourgeois*, in a historic perspective. The Chilean govm't is an
*oligarchic* govm't. This makes a tremendous difference. And failure
to understand this puts leftists once again off the good track when
speaking of Latin America. It may sound ugly to Europeans or
Americans, but *bourgeois* government are worthy of Marxist support
in the 3rd. World.

And please let us not begin to speak on the Canton Massacre of 1927,
etc. I am not talking about acritical support...
Post by Johannes Schneider
Lula's austerity measures (e.g. the pension reform) shows there is little
political space for an alliance between 2 and 3.
Johannes
_______________________________________________
Marxism mailing list
Marxism at lists.econ.utah.edu
http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/listinfo/marxism
N?stor Miguel Gorojovsky
nestorgoro at fibertel.com.ar

_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _
"S?, una sola debe ser la patria de los sudamericanos".
Sim?n Bol?var al gobierno secesionista y disgregador de
Buenos Aires, 1822
_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _

Matías Scaglione
2004-02-11 14:47:51 UTC
Permalink
--- Johannes Schneider <Johannes.Schneider at gmx.net>
Post by Johannes Schneider
Actually I do not care much about one sectarian
calling the other
sectarian, Morenoite, Autonomist or whatever, but
what I care about are
arguments and I had the impression that this what
this list is made for
and not about cheap jokes where to get satisfaction
from or not.
In the article I quoted
http://www.alcaabajo.cu/sitio/stop_ftaa/mercosur_and_the_ftaa_200104.htm
Post by Johannes Schneider
Katz argues that Brazil and Argentina lack
coordinated policies in order
to confront US-imperialism and instead of
challenging neoliberalism they
are making concessions to it.
Katz may be wrong, but name-calling does not reject
his arguments.
Johannes
Dear Johannes:

The email Louis forwarded was meant to be private.
Louis sent it believing that I was posting it to the
list. I was really upset about this mistake, but these
are (just one of) the dangers of this kind of
communication.
I care a lot about what I publish, and I would never
attack a "person" but her or his "arguments",and I
would do it in the more honest critical way I could.
Having said that: as Argentinean and economist I do
not support the diagnosis and prognosis Katz is
proposing. Maybe someday I would critically discuss
his ideas, but not in this list. It should be very
clear that I also do not like cheap jokes.
Best,

Mat?as


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