Discussion:
VERBAL ABUSE
(too old to reply)
Karl Carlile
1996-02-19 17:56:01 UTC
Permalink
You just don't fucking get it! You have absolutely *NO*
comprehention of what you are talking about. If you did, you wouldn't be
talking out of your ass like you are. *I'M NOT TALKING ABOUT CLIQUEISHNESS
DUMB-FUCK!* I'm talking about CULTS.
_____________________________________________________


This kind of pornopgraphic verbal abuse on the list makes no contribution to
the advancement of the interests of the working class. It is no substitue
for political argument.

I urge all members of the list to register their opposition to pornographic
verbal abuse on the list by immeditaely making a posting indicating their
opposition to it.

DOWN WITH PORNAGRAPHIC VERBAL ABUSE ON THE MARXISM LIST!


Yours etc.,
Karl Carlile












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Louis N Proyect
1996-02-19 18:17:24 UTC
Permalink
My guess is that a lot of list members are hot under the collar now
because of tensions that have been raised by the ultra-Stalinists. There
have been too many charges lately about "snitches", "running-doggism",
etc. This tends to pollute the atmosphere. Chegitz has never written
anything this abusive in the past, although people like Ralph Dumain and I
have. There is no excuse for my behavior, but I certainly would cut
Chegitz some slack.

Louis
Post by Karl Carlile
You just don't fucking get it! You have absolutely *NO*
comprehention of what you are talking about. If you did, you wouldn't be
talking out of your ass like you are. *I'M NOT TALKING ABOUT CLIQUEISHNESS
DUMB-FUCK!* I'm talking about CULTS.
_____________________________________________________
This kind of pornopgraphic verbal abuse on the list makes no contribution to
the advancement of the interests of the working class. It is no substitue
for political argument.
I urge all members of the list to register their opposition to pornographic
verbal abuse on the list by immeditaely making a posting indicating their
opposition to it.
DOWN WITH PORNAGRAPHIC VERBAL ABUSE ON THE MARXISM LIST!
Yours etc.,
Karl Carlile
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Doug Henwood
1996-02-19 17:51:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by Karl Carlile
DOWN WITH PORNAGRAPHIC VERBAL ABUSE ON THE MARXISM LIST!
And don't forget WORLD REVOLUTION - NOW!

Doug

--

Doug Henwood
Left Business Observer
250 W 85 St
New York NY 10024-3217
USA
+1-212-874-4020 voice
+1-212-874-3137 fax
email: <dhenwood at panix.com>
web: <http://www.panix.com/~dhenwood/LBO_home.html>




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Karl Carlile
1996-02-19 21:31:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by Doug Henwood
Post by Karl Carlile
DOWN WITH PORNAGRAPHIC VERBAL ABUSE ON THE MARXISM LIST!
And don't forget WORLD REVOLUTION - NOW!
Doug
__________________________________________________________________________

Dear Doug:

It would not make political sense to include your slogan as there is no
possibility of world revolution now. However it is possible for individual
contributors to the list to refrain from pornographic verbal abuse in their
postings.

Your posting might have been more valuable had you given your support in
this regard..



Yours etc.,
Karl Carlile












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Marcus Strom
1996-02-20 00:49:50 UTC
Permalink
Karl

How on earth is the language described pornographic?

It just seems fucking ridiculous to describe 'naughty curse words' as
pornographic.

Is this a catholic thing?

Oh. and by the way, Doug was probably joking (in cased you missed it)
Post by Karl Carlile
It would not make political sense to include your slogan as there is no
possibility of world revolution now. However it is possible for individual
contributors to the list to refrain from pornographic verbal abuse in their
postings.
Your posting might have been more valuable had you given your support in
this regard..
Yours etc.,
Karl Carlile
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Rahul Mahajan
1996-02-20 01:11:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by Doug Henwood
Post by Karl Carlile
DOWN WITH PORNAGRAPHIC VERBAL ABUSE ON THE MARXISM LIST!
And don't forget WORLD REVOLUTION - NOW!
Doug
If I can't say "fuck," you can keep your revolution.

Rahul




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Ralph Dumain
1996-02-20 03:23:59 UTC
Permalink
Rahul, this list has been there, done that. The proper expression is
"If I can't say 'fuck _you_', you can keep your revolution." You
aren't afraid of sexist and homophobic lingo, are you?

Q: How many Dworkins does it take to screw in a light bulb?

A: Rape!


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Doug Henwood
1996-02-20 04:12:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rahul Mahajan
Post by Doug Henwood
Post by Karl Carlile
DOWN WITH PORNAGRAPHIC VERBAL ABUSE ON THE MARXISM LIST!
And don't forget WORLD REVOLUTION - NOW!
Doug
If I can't say "fuck," you can keep your revolution.
Hey! Where have I heard that before?

Doug

--

Doug Henwood
Left Business Observer
250 W 85 St
New York NY 10024-3217
USA
+1-212-874-4020 voice
+1-212-874-3137 fax
email: <dhenwood at panix.com>
web: <http://www.panix.com/~dhenwood/LBO_home.html>




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Doug Henwood
1996-02-20 04:14:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ralph Dumain
Q: How many Dworkins does it take to screw in a light bulb?
A: Rape!
Not if the bulb remains flaccid!

Doug

--

Doug Henwood
Left Business Observer
250 W 85 St
New York NY 10024-3217
USA
+1-212-874-4020 voice
+1-212-874-3137 fax
email: <dhenwood at panix.com>
web: <http://www.panix.com/~dhenwood/LBO_home.html>




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glevy
1996-02-20 05:28:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by Doug Henwood
Post by Rahul Mahajan
Post by Doug Henwood
Post by Karl Carlile
DOWN WITH PORNAGRAPHIC VERBAL ABUSE ON THE MARXISM LIST!
And don't forget WORLD REVOLUTION - NOW!
If I can't say "fuck," you can keep your revolution.
Hey! Where have I heard that before?
Doug
That's right, I knew someone on this li*t used that line before -- it
was fucking Doug himself!

Jerry


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Chegitz Guevara
1996-02-20 06:02:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by Louis N Proyect
My guess is that a lot of list members are hot under the collar now
because of tensions that have been raised by the ultra-Stalinists. There
have been too many charges lately about "snitches", "running-doggism",
etc. This tends to pollute the atmosphere. Chegitz has never written
anything this abusive in the past, although people like Ralph Dumain and I
have. There is no excuse for my behavior, but I certainly would cut
Chegitz some slack.
Louis
Post by Karl Carlile
You just don't fucking get it! You have absolutely *NO*
comprehention of what you are talking about. If you did, you wouldn't be
talking out of your ass like you are. *I'M NOT TALKING ABOUT CLIQUEISHNESS
DUMB-FUCK!* I'm talking about CULTS.
_____________________________________________________
This kind of pornopgraphic verbal abuse on the list makes no contribution to
the advancement of the interests of the working class. It is no substitue
for political argument.
I urge all members of the list to register their opposition to pornographic
verbal abuse on the list by immeditaely making a posting indicating their
opposition to it.
DOWN WITH PORNAGRAPHIC VERBAL ABUSE ON THE MARXISM LIST!
Yours etc.,
Karl Carlile
Louis is partially correct in that the conduct of the ultra-Stalinist have
inflamed the level on this list, and that has partially to do with my
temper. But mostly it has to do with two other details which those who are
urging me to keep cool are doing. One is the pressing need to keep a young
comrade from joining Barnestown. If the SWP USA were just another bunch
of Trotskyist losers (which I count myself among), then I wouldn't be so
vehement. But they aren't, they are every bit as bad Jehovah's Witnesses.
They mess with your head and your emotions.

But what really set me off was Bodistava's holier-than-thou attitude,
speaking as though he knew what he was talking about, when to those of us
who have been through the SWP or similar cults (Spark, the Organization
for Worker's Power [HA!], and two coalitions with the ISO [thought I
woulda learned my lesson the first time] for myself) it was clear he
didn't know anything. It was a slap in the face. In effect he was saying,
"What they went through is invalid." Well, fuck him with a pointed stick.
Abuse isn't something to just be poo-poo'ed and hoo hummed.

Jim Miller's comments about these being voluntary organizations is also
crap. They are only in the same sense that Branch Davidians were a
voluntary church.

You just can't understand unless you've been through it, and I was only in
for 5 years. It took me two years to be able to be political again. I
can't easily intellectualize it for you. It's emotional, and that's how I
express it.

So you and your moralism can fuck off, Karl. When you walk in my shoe's,
then you can criticism me.

And get your terms right. Fuck is an obscenity, not porn.

Marc, "the Chegitz," Luzietti
personal homepage: http://shrike.depaul.edu/~mluziett
political homepage: http://shrike.depaul.edu/~mluziett/chegitz.html

o/~ When an eel lunges out and it bites off your snout, 'ats amore o/~



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boddhisatva
1996-02-21 05:39:05 UTC
Permalink
Chegitz,



Your problem is not what I wrote but what you did not read. I
specifically said in my first post that I did not know the group in question.
I was making a general reaction to cliquishness/cultishness and sectarianism
in left movements. I DID NOT nor will I nor have I argued with your
experience. Obviously it was traumatic enough to hit your Turet's button.




peace





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Rahul Mahajan
1996-02-21 06:59:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ralph Dumain
Rahul, this list has been there, done that. The proper expression is
"If I can't say 'fuck _you_', you can keep your revolution." You
aren't afraid of sexist and homophobic lingo, are you?
No, and I'm not afraid of calling a spade a goddamn nigger, either. Thanks
for the correction on the quote. I will tell the Dworkin joke to at least
two people and try to get each of them to tell at least two people, etc.

Rahul




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Hugh Rodwell
1996-02-21 15:30:39 UTC
Permalink
Yeah, tell 'em, Justin. For all you p.c. lunkheads out there, the joke hinges
on two things, knowing who Dworkin is, and the word "screw". It's bad
enough you fucking dimwits couldn;t respond to my Feurbach postings, but
you can't even figure out a simple joke. Here I pour out my heart and soul
for you, and what do I get? Duhhhhhh. Why do i even bother?
Pearls before swine, eh? Misunderstood genius? How's the wife?

Imagine this attitude in the leadership of a party.

Imagine something going wrong.

Imagine where the leadership would tend to place the blame.

Cheers,

Hugh




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Karl Carlile
1996-02-21 16:03:01 UTC
Permalink
The use of ""obscene"" language generally adds nothing to the meaning of an
argument. If these "words" add meaning to dialectical argument then one
would might have expected Marx and Lenin to have made more generous use of
this "language" in their works and speeches.

If the character of the capitalist economy or other matters is being
discussed "obscene words" add nothing to the discussion and if anything only
pollute and confuse. In many cases this language is used as a substitute
for rational argument.

Furthermore the use of "obscene language" in an abusive pornographic way is
an attempt to debase the individual. Some members of the list attack others
on the list by the use of "obscene language". In this way they are engaged
in what one might call a personal attack rather than a political attack.
Clearly to substitute abusive personal attacks for political argument is
reactionary and irrational. Irrationalism is a reactionary ideology which
marxism has persistently struggled against. If this kind of irrationaism is
acceptable then rational discussion is redundant. Consequently marxism is
unnecessary. Then discussion is reduced to sustained verbal abuse.
Consequently it collapses into meaningless babble and thereby non-humanity.

If "obscene language" has rational meaning then there is no reason why the
text of Capital and Left-Wing Communism An Infantile Disorder cannot be
translated into this language. The fact that there have been no significant
texts produced in this language is evidence of the severe limitations of
this "language"; its inability to say anything significant.

The use of this "language" in an argument is a way of saying that the
prevalent language being used is inadequate to the task. It is an
expression of the lack of confidence in the practiced language: the need to
reach for these words to prop up one's argument. Yet since these words share
no commonality with the principal language being used to convey an argument
it is clear then that the use of the "obscene" language is a tacit attack on
that very language together with the argument presented. The use of
"obscenities", then, is an attack on human language. It is a call for
non-language. It is a programme that promotes ugh, ugh. Since it is
anti-language it is anti-human and thereby reactionary. It is "a language"
that promotes non-language. It is an expression of lack of self-confidence
in human beings and thereby the working class. It desires to promote
meaningless and thereby ignorance among the working class. The promotion of
"obnscene language" is a form of what I cal lingophobia or linguistic
Ludditism. It is a reactionary politics. It is nihilistic

Among many lefties there is the mistaken view that the use of this
"language" is chic. Some people on the list may also use this "language"
because of negative peer pressure. It is easy to engage in "obscene" verbal
abuse against another member of the list while hiding behind the anonymity
of the internet.

I would like those people hostile to my posting on verbal abuse to try to
engage in serious discussion concerning the matter rather than deliver
feeble and even abusive responses. I also urge those who are against its use
to stand up and be counted by making their views known to the list. I will
conclude this posting with a quotation from Leon Trotsky:

"I read lately in one of our papers that at a general meeting of the workers
at the "Paris Commune" shoe factory, a resolution was carried to abstain
from swearing, to impose fines for bad language, etc....

Abusive language and swearing are a legacy of slavery, humiliation and
disrespect for human dignity- one's own and that of other people."

Incidentally I have used copious quotation marks in this posting. I hope
they show up at the other end.





Yours etc.,
Karl Carlile












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LeoCasey
1996-02-21 17:22:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rahul Mahajan
I'm not afraid of calling a spade a goddamn nigger,
Look, this discussion of appropriate and inappropriate goes nowhere on this
list, but there has to be some fucking boundaries for a group of folks who
clalim some allegiance to left wing values and principles, and this
incredibly offensive statement violates it.



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Doug Henwood
1996-02-21 17:07:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by Karl Carlile
The use of ""obscene"" language generally adds nothing to the meaning of an
argument. If these "words" add meaning to dialectical argument then one
would might have expected Marx and Lenin to have made more generous use of
this "language" in their works and speeches.
[...]
Post by Karl Carlile
to stand up and be counted by making their views known to the list. I will
"I read lately in one of our papers that at a general meeting of the workers
at the "Paris Commune" shoe factory, a resolution was carried to abstain
from swearing, to impose fines for bad language, etc....
Abusive language and swearing are a legacy of slavery, humiliation and
disrespect for human dignity- one's own and that of other people."
Fucking hell, man, me and the comrades down at the shop, we were sitting
around in our Grundrisse study group and I'll be fucked if we didn't come
across this fucking passage:

"In fact, of course, this 'productive' worker cares as much about the
crappy shit he has to make as does the capitalist himself who employs, and
who also couldn't give a damn for the junk."

Wow, we said, now the Old Man is talking our language!


Doug

--

Doug Henwood
Left Business Observer
250 W 85 St
New York NY 10024-3217
USA
+1-212-874-4020 voice
+1-212-874-3137 fax
email: <dhenwood at panix.com>
web: <http://www.panix.com/~dhenwood/LBO_home.html>




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Robert Peter Burns
1996-02-21 20:06:14 UTC
Permalink
I bloody well agree with every frigging word, dammit!

--Peter
Post by Karl Carlile
The use of ""obscene"" language generally adds nothing to the meaning of an
argument. If these "words" add meaning to dialectical argument then one
would might have expected Marx and Lenin to have made more generous use of
this "language" in their works and speeches.
<rest deleted>


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Bryan A. Alexander
1996-02-22 00:39:01 UTC
Permalink
Hear hear.



Bryan Alexander Department of English
email: bnalexan at umich.edu University of Michigan
phone: (313) 764-0418 Ann Arbor, MI USA 48103
fax: (313) 763-3128 http://www.umich.edu/~bnalexan
Post by LeoCasey
Post by Rahul Mahajan
I'm not afraid of calling a spade a goddamn nigger,
Look, this discussion of appropriate and inappropriate goes nowhere on this
list, but there has to be some fucking boundaries for a group of folks who
clalim some allegiance to left wing values and principles, and this
incredibly offensive statement violates it.
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detcom
1996-02-22 01:03:20 UTC
Permalink
I finally find myself in agreement with Leo
on something.

Rahul should make big self-criticism for his
backward, racist and abusive language and
thinking. Otherwise he should find some kind
of skinhead forum where his remarks might
be appreciated.

Jay Miles



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Justin Schwartz
1996-02-22 03:27:29 UTC
Permalink
No shit! --jks
Post by Doug Henwood
Post by Karl Carlile
The use of ""obscene"" language generally adds nothing to the meaning of an
argument. If these "words" add meaning to dialectical argument then one
would might have expected Marx and Lenin to have made more generous use of
this "language" in their works and speeches.
[...]
Post by Karl Carlile
to stand up and be counted by making their views known to the list. I will
"I read lately in one of our papers that at a general meeting of the workers
at the "Paris Commune" shoe factory, a resolution was carried to abstain
from swearing, to impose fines for bad language, etc....
Abusive language and swearing are a legacy of slavery, humiliation and
disrespect for human dignity- one's own and that of other people."
Fucking hell, man, me and the comrades down at the shop, we were sitting
around in our Grundrisse study group and I'll be fucked if we didn't come
"In fact, of course, this 'productive' worker cares as much about the
crappy shit he has to make as does the capitalist himself who employs, and
who also couldn't give a damn for the junk."
Wow, we said, now the Old Man is talking our language!
Doug
--
Doug Henwood
Left Business Observer
250 W 85 St
New York NY 10024-3217
USA
+1-212-874-4020 voice
+1-212-874-3137 fax
email: <dhenwood at panix.com>
web: <http://www.panix.com/~dhenwood/LBO_home.html>
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rakesh bhandari
1996-02-23 06:20:18 UTC
Permalink
nd also never to use the n-word if you are
not black, unless maybe you run into that exceptional person that
really really really deserves it.
Ralph, please indicate to me what (you think) someone would have to do to
deserve being called that. A follower of Lassalle's politics? Or would he
just have to look like Lassalle?

Rahul, I don't have the slightest idea of what you were trying to prove.

This whole exchange makes me sick to my stomach, and I am certain that it
has chased more than one person off this list.

I can't believe that anybody would begin a thread like this not
understanding that it would necessarily draw people into a very painful
discussion which will sink some into depression and waste the time of
many.

Note that there is no language with which to counter your self-perceived
flippancy; that is, the word only serves to indicate that the humanity of
only those to whom the term can be applied can be questioned both verbally
and, increasingly, institutionally. The very existence of the word remains
a badge of inferiority which is worn by anyone to whom it can be applied.

There was no indication in your message that you are in the slightest
sensitive to this meaning of the word.

'Coolie' does not carry the same connotation in the US, and you are
mainfestly from a class which maintains such prejudices against the
exploited anyway.

I hope that the moderators intervene to make clear that certain guidelines
must be enforced to make this a place where people feel comfortable to both
joke around and carry out real arguments.

Rakesh

ps I have now read your last message in which you claim the right to use
the expletive because you have been called one. But the point is that you
can maintain a certain bemused distance from the expletive because you can
escape the encompassment of its dehumanization by asserting and believing
that you have simply been mistaken for a n...r.



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Rahul Mahajan
1996-02-22 07:28:23 UTC
Permalink
All right, I guess I've provoked a shit-storm and I should deal with it. I
hope this can put an end to the matter because the last thing I want is to
increase the amount of pointless diversionary nonsense on the list.

First of all, Rakesh, I was trying to prove nothing at all. I was
responding to Ralph, who I recall making statements about orangutans
swilling their own vomit or something of the kind with regard to the MMM.
If I was going to say it at all, I should have said it in a private message
because it certainly served no point.

If anyone was driven off the list by it, I'm sorry. If it serves to further
degrade the level of discussion on the list, I'm sorry about that too.
However, I'll be damned if I'll apologize either for the word or for the
"attitudes" it supposedly represents.

I can't imagine how a word becomes an argument for bigotry. There was
absolutely nothing bigoted that I said. I don't think of or treate black
people anyone differently from non-black people, nor do I say different
things about them. I wouldn't join any skinheads of the type Jay Miles
mentions on a bet, and if I did I'm sure they'd beat me up. It's sad that
there are so many people on the list afraid of a word. It's also amusing to
see a bunch of white (mostly) people jumping on me for being a bigot or at
least for being offensive. Not, of course, that being white means you don't
have the right to oppose bigotry, even in us oppressed people of color.
It's just amusing, that's all.

To address Rakesh's other points. Like many radicals from the middle class,
I tend to overcompensate and associate more virtue with coolies than with
businessman. I don't think the circumstances of my birth are relevant.
Finally, it's true that I don't really know how a black person feels when a
non-black person calls him or her a nigger. Nor do I know how a woman feels
when a joke about rape or even using the word "rape" is told. I know how I
feel when everyone gets all prim and prudish around me, though. It's a lot
like how I feel right now. The right to offend people is a precious one
that we shouldn't either throw away or attempt to stifle in others. In this
case, as I said before, there was no purpose served by the offense.

Rahul Mahajan

P.S. It's a shame the rest of you couldn't respond as temperately as Ralph.

P.P.S. I can't stand Dinesh D'Souza.

P.P.P.S. I'll soon be posting on truly offensive writings by Gayatri Spivak
and Stanley Aronowitz, among others.




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boddhisatva
1996-02-22 09:22:04 UTC
Permalink
To whom...,



Having been the recent receiver of some "verbal abuse" and "obscene
language, I feel comfortable making one comment. Mr. Carlile makes the
excellent point that "Abusive language and swearing are a legacy of
slavery, humiliation and disrespect for human dignity- one's own and that
of other people."


As socialists we should pay homage to this struggle, and not defile
it. One way of defiling it is swearing badly. There is nothing more glaring
and embarrassing than reading a sentence with badly formed bad language.
Unfortunately, (and I make no specific references here) there have been
examples of awkward and juvenile use of obscenity on this list. Indeed, hip,
white America seems to be intent on taking the music and meaning out of
curses by using them constantly and inappropriately.


A true master can use streams of foul words without creating a hint
of cacaphony in the educated ear. At the same time, a badly placed "fuck"
can make a sailor cringe.


It should be noted that learning to swear is no easy thing. Young
people spend many fruitless hours trying to utter the gutteral in a way that
conveys emotion and poetry. Learning to write in bathroom dialect is even
harder - and rarely achieved. Yet, the emotional person, one who knows that
he is inclined to make an impression with plain talk, must attempt to learn
this language with seriousness.


My own suggestions would be to begin with well known media
foulmouths. Robert Deniro is an excellent choice for the beginner.
Actually, anything directed by Martin Scorcese can be a primer. Eddie
Murphy can be excellent. However, avoid Richard Pryor in the early
stages. In fact, it is best not to begin with heavy Afro-American
dialect. As with most things, African Americans really define the state of
the art in folk culture, with a peculiar style that sets the tone for the
universal. Attempting to internalize this specialized area of culture is
overly ambitious for those unable (whether through inadequecy of talent,
or misfortune of ethnicity) to dedicate a complete effort to it. Unfit
students may fall embarrassingly short of the mark.


Now the step is to take one's knowledge of the vulgar vernacular
into a real-life setting. The inclination, on watching "Goodfellas" for
the fourth time, would be to run to the nearest Italian neighborhood.
Instead, caution must be used. Many persons of Italian ancestry,
especially along the eastern seaboard, are coprolalics of exquisite
skill. I myself have enjoyed an amazing audience of conversations held
in Bloomfield and Newark, New Jersey which consisted solely of the words
"No" and "Fuck you." The depth and breadth of meaning these young
Italians were able to conjure with such a limited vocabulary should put
the most accomplished Haiku artist on notice.



Instead of jumping into the obscenity frying pan, try absorbing
your naughty talk by easy stages. First, try to be a fly on the wall when
tradesmen such as mechanics and carpenters are faced with challenging
tasks. Then, step into a working class tavern when a particularly lively
discussion seems to be taking place, particularly if you find a local
sports team to be losing a contest televised therein. Go to an Islanders
home hockey game. If you feel that you are getting the rudiments, try
visiting the kitchen of your favorite restaurant during a brisk weekday
dinner rush (warning: this is not for persons who will be overly sensitive
to the conditions under which their food is cooked). For a fun and
informative outing, try Bike Week at Daytona Beach, Florida. In fact,
Biker publications are a good way to get a feel for profanity in a prose
setting. Then, you'll be ready to develop an appreciation for the
trendsetters on American bad language by lending an ear to the
conversation in a barber shop or basketball court frequented by
African Americans with proletarian sensibilities.



At the end of this process, you should be well rounded enough to
try some things on your own. Pay attention to emphasis, force is more
important than frequency. Don't try to be too creative, simplicity is
always preferable. Adhere to colloquial rules of placement - the tried
and true is always a beginner's best bet. Finally, remember that attitude
is the key, irony over outrage, mocking over insult, and, always, sarcasm
over seriousness.




Good luck,





boddhisatva





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g.maclennan
1996-02-22 08:23:41 UTC
Permalink
This is a tricky topic but if one steps back from it it is interesting
enough. Now Rakesh has called for the moderators to intervene in the case
of Rahul's use of the term "nigger". Rakesh cannot even bring himself to
write this out in full, so great is the taboo for him. Rahul thinks he has
earned the right to use it because he has been called it. Speaking as a gay
person I think Rahul should be wary of self hatred here manifesting itself
as ultra liberalism. If Rahul was an Afro-American I doubt if he would be
so liberal. My opinion is that the word "nigger" has no part in the
discourse of emancipation and so should not appear on this list.


Now I am also opposed to homophobic language. I wrote for example in
response to Elsequin's horrifying remarks about Charlotte and Scott but my
post vanished out there somewhere.
Other comrades however did jump in and tell Elsequin where to go.

But I am also opposed to wowserism. I am Irish and have always sworn.
though travel on five continents has taught me that cultures employ
obscenities differently. What is mild to me might seem excessive to say the
English. And I will never forget my reaction to the first time I heard
"motherfucker", I almost fainted. The international nature of the list is
indeed something for our American comrades to remember when they launch into
abuse.

Still I will continue to swear and curse but I will try and be careful about
my targets. The trick is of course to aim at the powerful. Yet this list
is something of a community in its own strange untidy swarming scrambling
cyber way and I have like everyone who reads thru it regularly have formed
mental pictures of you all. And of course I love everyone of you even god
knows crazy old Jerry who cannot keep himself from reading everything I
write to see if I say something about him. (Peace Jerry)

A sense of humour and respect for members goes a long way but as always it
has to be earned. Men have no automatic right to demand that women display
a sense of humour. Ditto for race and sexuality.

But there are occasions when no offense is intended and some leeway should
be granted for example when I first joined this list there was a furore over
Ralph telling someone down here to shove a didgeridoo up their ass. I
almost unsubscribed on the spot. Now that I know Ralph better I am
inclined to laugh at it all and wonder if he has ever seen a didgeridoo.

regards

Gary
g.maclennan
school of media & journalism
qut




--- from list marxism at lists.village.virginia.edu ---

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Rahul Mahajan
1996-02-22 10:32:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by g.maclennan
This is a tricky topic but if one steps back from it it is interesting
enough. Now Rakesh has called for the moderators to intervene in the case
of Rahul's use of the term "nigger". Rakesh cannot even bring himself to
write this out in full, so great is the taboo for him. Rahul thinks he has
earned the right to use it because he has been called it. Speaking as a gay
person I think Rahul should be wary of self hatred here manifesting itself
as ultra liberalism. If Rahul was an Afro-American I doubt if he would be
so liberal. My opinion is that the word "nigger" has no part in the
discourse of emancipation and so should not appear on this list.
This is to laugh, Gary. Self-hatred? I just don't care for taboos, that's
all. Marx had no problem talking about dirty-Judaism either, but it's quite
absurd to call him an anti-Semite or a self-hater (of course, he _was_
intensely racist toward Slavs and Asians).

"Discourse of emancipation" has a nice ring to it but it seems prone to
making everything dissolve into an orgy of backslapping and mutual
admiration. What if somebody's "discourse of emancipation" is wrong or
stupid or misconceived and I criticize it? Is what I say then still part of
the DOE or is it anti-DOE, part of the "discourse of slavery" or what? What
if I make the criticism vituperatively? DOE, like false consciousness, is a
concept that's slippery to define and easy to abuse. I'm not sure, on the
other hand, whether it has the power and usefulness of the latter.

I'm interested in your comment on homophobic lingo. I have a couple of
"gay" friends who generally refer to themselves as queers or faggots, and
agree with me that "gay" is an annoying term, one that seeks to sanitize
and mainstream something that's real and messy and interesting in its own
right, not just something on which to exercise one's "tolerance." And
they're very well-adjusted, polite, intelligent, socialist guys too,
definitely not unbalanced self-haters like me. What do you think?

Rahul




--- from list marxism at lists.village.virginia.edu ---

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Karl Carlile
1996-02-22 13:45:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by Doug Henwood
"In fact, of course, this 'productive' worker cares as much about the
crappy shit he has to make as does the capitalist himself who employs, and
who also couldn't give a damn for the junk."
Wow, we said, now the Old Man is talking our language!
The Grundrisse were notes written by Marx and were not intended for publication.
You must have spent some time searching for this piece from the Grundrisee
since their is little in the form of *obscene language* in the Grundrisse.
However in my view it was time wasted since it takes nothing away from my
argumentn. I think you would serve marxism better if you conducted a
rational discussion on the matter of *obscene language* rather than engage
in your present valueless exercises on the List concerning verbal abuse on
the List.


Yours etc.,
Karl Carlile












--- from list marxism at lists.village.virginia.edu ---

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Ralph Dumain
1996-02-22 15:35:14 UTC
Permalink
I have seen a dijeridoo and even handled one (hmmm). IN NOvember
some friends came down from Buffalo to perform in DC and one of
the musicians broughthis dijeridoo.

I did receive you rbook in the mail when I returned from out of
town and I sent you a provate message thanking you profusely.
Didn't you get my message?

I don't intend to make a practice out of using the "n" word, but I
will respond to this issue in mynext post to Rahul.


--- from list marxism at lists.village.virginia.edu ---

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Karl Carlile
1996-02-22 20:29:24 UTC
Permalink
To Louis N. Proyect:

I appreciate the very recent views expressed by you on the list concerning
*obscenities*.




Fraternally yours,

Karl Carlile



--- from list marxism at lists.village.virginia.edu ---

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rakesh bhandari
1996-02-24 02:53:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rahul Mahajan
. What if somebody's "discourse of emancipation" is wrong or
stupid or misconceived
Well, obviously, then call the spade a goddamn nigger. I know that you are
not afraid, uptight, intemperate or politically correct.

It seems to me that the use of the word of nigger *within* a community will
become acceptable only in the context of cultures of permanent
under-employment. From residential segregration to redlining to employer
discrimination, racism has served, as William Julius Wilson may put it,
to "concentrate" unemployment among African-Americans and "spatialize" it
in the areas to which they have been coercively relegated. Which is not to
say that they are the only insecure ones in the labor market. Indeed
workers without credentials (unskilled workers) seem to be the most
vulenerable of all.

Indeed I think the more important discussion would be about the political
nature of those who have endured or even grown up into permanent
unemployment.

I just found out that the Austro Marxist Max Adler dealt with this question
in 1933 as it was becoming evident that no upturn in the business cycle was
going to eliminate unemployment. He raised questions of the relation of
these marginalized people to the actively exploited workers. I am just now
looking at this piece which is included in a volume entitled
Austro-Marxists, ed. Tom Bottomore and Patrick Goode (who has also written
a helpful biography of Karl Korsch).




--- from list marxism at lists.village.virginia.edu ---

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g.maclennan
1996-02-23 06:00:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ralph Dumain
I have seen a dijeridoo and even handled one (hmmm). IN NOvember
some friends came down from Buffalo to perform in DC and one of
the musicians broughthis dijeridoo.
I did receive you rbook in the mail when I returned from out of
town and I sent you a provate message thanking you profusely.
Didn't you get my message?
I don't intend to make a practice out of using the "n" word, but I
will respond to this issue in mynext post to Rahul.
--- from list marxism at lists.village.virginia.edu ---
No I didn't get you post about the book, Ralph but I am delighted it made
it. You are very welcome. Now why don't you post something about it?

The fact that you have seen and handled a didge means that you must be one
mean mother to ask someone to shove it!

regards

Gary
g.maclennan
school of media & journalism
qut




--- from list marxism at lists.village.virginia.edu ---

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g.maclennan
1996-02-23 06:20:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rahul Mahajan
T
This is to laugh, Gary. Self-hatred? I just don't care for taboos, that's
all. Marx had no problem talking about dirty-Judaism either, but it's quite
absurd to call him an anti-Semite or a self-hater (of course, he _was_
intensely racist toward Slavs and Asians).
er it has the power and usefulness of the latter.
I am glad that you do not suffer from self hatred, Rahul. But that makes me
much less tolerant of your use of the "nigger" word. If the term "discourse
of emancipation is too vage or what ever why not try going into an
afro-American ghetto (Harlem?) and try telling them about the word "nigger".
the resultant process would in all probablility be extremely simple.

BTW I have always thought that Marx's On the Jewish Question is full of self
hatrred, but who is to tell?
Post by Rahul Mahajan
I'm interested in your comment on homophobic lingo. I have a couple of
"gay" friends who generally refer to themselves as queers or faggots, and
agree with me that "gay" is an annoying term, one that seeks to sanitize
and mainstream something that's real and messy and interesting in its own
right, not just something on which to exercise one's "tolerance." And
they're very well-adjusted, polite, intelligent, socialist guys too,
definitely not unbalanced self-haters like me. What do you think?
Now, Rahul I absolutely hate the word "queer" but that simply says
something about my age. within the gay movement (at least here in
Australia) the oldies prefer "gay" while the youngies who get their politics
off the satelite have got into queer nation, poststructuralism and its off
shoot queer theory.

Now as to jokes and insults among gays. Agin of course gays call each other
lots of things, but they have earned the right and it is a means of building
solidarity. I do not mind at all being called a faggot by my gay friends.
But if a nazi calls me that and he is old and frail (better make that very
old and very frail) I will beat the shit out of him.

Think of the jokes Jews tell about each other. They are wickedly funny and
then compare them to those told by Nazis where the Jew becomes the
feared/loathed and despised Other.
Comradely yours

Gary
g.maclennan
school of media & journalism
qut




--- from list marxism at lists.village.virginia.edu ---

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Rahul Mahajan
1996-02-23 06:34:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by g.maclennan
I am glad that you do not suffer from self hatred, Rahul. But that makes me
much less tolerant of your use of the "nigger" word. If the term "discourse
of emancipation is too vage or what ever why not try going into an
afro-American ghetto (Harlem?) and try telling them about the word "nigger".
the resultant process would in all probablility be extremely simple.
Thanks for the suggestion, Gary. Are you sure what would happen to me would
be sufficient punishment for what I did?

What about the possibility of solidarity? My gay friends don't mind when I
use the term "faggot" (privately, of course) even though they know I'm not
gay.

I'm amazed that a bunch of nominally intelligent people still don't seem to
get the point. What I said was not an expression of latent racism that I
never admitted even to myself before now. The point is the difference
between style and substance and the ability not to fixate on words when
there are more important issues at hand.

Rahul




--- from list marxism at lists.village.virginia.edu ---

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Karl Carlile
1996-02-24 15:41:44 UTC
Permalink
To Jon Flanders:

I appreciate your views on *obscenities*.

I urge all members on the list who are opposed to the use of *obscenities*
and verbal abuse on the List through a posting to indicate this. As you may
have seen those who are for the use of *obscenities* and verbal abuse are
not slow to express , I am being very generous here, *views* on the List.

Perhaps some kind of posting containing a statement expressing opposition
to it could be arranged to which each member of the List is free to put his
name.

Yours etc.,
Karl Carlile












--- from list marxism at lists.village.virginia.edu ---

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Kalpana Sutaria
1996-02-24 19:58:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by Karl Carlile
I appreciate your views on *obscenities*.
I urge all members on the list who are opposed to the use of *obscenities*
and verbal abuse on the List through a posting to indicate this. As you may
have seen those who are for the use of *obscenities* and verbal abuse are
not slow to express , I am being very generous here, *views* on the List.
Perhaps some kind of posting containing a statement expressing opposition
to it could be arranged to which each member of the List is free to put his
name.
While we're at it, everyone who approves of the CDA, please raise your hand.

Rahul




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Keith
1996-02-24 23:13:15 UTC
Permalink
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Reply to msg on 24 Feb 96 at 15:41, Karl Carlile said " VERBAL
ABUSE "
Post by Karl Carlile
I appreciate your views on *obscenities*.
I urge all members on the list who are opposed to the use of
*obscenities*
If you want to edit out email with obscence words you should try
Pegasus mail for windows, MS-dos, Mac or netware applications. The
program allows you to filter out any mail that contains words or
from, to, subject out to any folder, response or deletion of the message.
It is a free program.
ftp://risc.ua.edu/pub/network/pegasus/

Keith

- --
kwyatt at fix.net|PGP key by finger| Ham/SWL/WUN & PGP @
http://www.fix.net/~kwyatt
For info on PGP send E-mail with the word:
"pgphelp" in the subject to me.
- ---------

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2
Comment: Who the heck is Phil Zimmerman?

iQCZAwUBMS+bcSN+EcmcptNRAQErEQQgggc3YlS6DpAMKR+VTYwOTJZX9E/5IYtw
GbyPRenPYguEUntDjFXQQzAMxXZLmqRjk+u+kwTaC6+eUVxoNReHpaIuj+DD5n8t
t/RgbUFzQXy/SmF4Bbq2LwdLQ6Xz6KXFN+FpecC/et77xJysoIO5AGQl021TV5nB
xQPeeF/9CnC6rbQ+
=mMCL
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


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Karl Carlile
1996-02-25 11:34:01 UTC
Permalink
To Keith:

I thank you for your response.

The problem is not one of my editing out *obscene language* or messages
containing *obscenities*. The problem concerning *obscenities* and verbal
abuse on the List is a politcal problem. As a political problem it is a
problem concerning the character of relations on the List. It is a problem
concerning the attitudes of individuals on the List towards other
individuals and thereby towards the character and quality of relations and
thereby discussion. Generally speaking *obscenities* and verbal abuse
interfere with the quality of discussion on the List and in this way tend to
diminish the character of relations between the individual members on the
List. This is why my intervention on the List concerning this issue is a
political intervention. Anything that intereferes with the quality of the
List must be fought against as part of a political effort to continuously
raise the quality of discussion on the List. Improving the quality of the
List constitutes a political development.

In opposing the use of this kind of *language* on the List I am not calling
for the exclusion from the Marxism List of individuals who use it in their
postings. I am simply calling on people to express their opposition to it.
In this way they may help develop a List culture which will encourage
individuals to choose not to employ it. In this way politics is being
practiced on the List.

Many people dont recognize the political significance of the List. The way
the List develops can play a part in internationally determining the way
politcs develops. Instead some view the List in a trivial context which
means they dont view socialism is a real possibility. If we dont recognize
the List's political significance then we are trivialisng our actions on the
List and in this way trivialisng our political being. Consequently we are
engaging in nihilism. We are therefore making a definite political statement
concerning historical possibility. We are making the political statement
that what we say and thereby what we do means nothing: counts for nothing.
Therefore *obscenities*, non-language.

I have no narrow moral objections to the use of *obscenities*. Consequently
the issue is not a matter of my finding a technology for eliminating these
*obscenities* from my mail.
Yours etc.,
Karl Carlile












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Rahul Mahajan
1996-02-25 11:40:55 UTC
Permalink
Karl, if you're going to keep posting this shit, could you please explain
what the fuck you're talking about? It seems to me your constant repetition
of meaningless generalities on this subject is more of a confession to
defeatism and to thinking this list is insignificant than most of the stuff
posted by the fuckmeisters.

Rahul




--- from list marxism at lists.village.virginia.edu ---

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Keith
1996-02-25 13:10:15 UTC
Permalink
Your absouletely right Karl. There is only three ways to deal with
it: Ban the author, condem the author or filter it out at the list or
at your email program.

IMHO, Keith



--- from list marxism at lists.village.virginia.edu ---

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Karl Carlile
1996-02-25 14:52:58 UTC
Permalink
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Date: Sun, 25 Feb 1996 05:40:55 -0600
Karl, if you're going to keep posting this shit, could you please explain
what the fuck you're talking about? It seems to me your constant repetition
of meaningless generalities on this subject is more of a confession to
defeatism and to thinking this list is insignificant than most of the stuff
posted by the fuckmeisters.
Karl replies:

If anything qualifies as "meaningless generalities" it is the above comments
of Rahul's.
Yours etc.,
Karl Carlile












--- from list marxism at lists.village.virginia.edu ---

------------------
Karl Carlile
1996-02-25 21:42:37 UTC
Permalink
To Jerry:

It is obvious by you response that you do not understand the postings I have
sent to the List on the subject of *obscene language* and verbal abuse.





Yours etc.,
Karl Carlile












--- from list marxism at lists.village.virginia.edu ---

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