Discussion:
[Marxism] North Star shows the way to imperialist intervention
Andrew Pollack
2012-07-07 21:51:18 UTC
Permalink
All proportions guarded, I had one of those
Lenin-reading-Vorwarts-in-August moments. Did Pham REALLY say these
counterrevolutionary things?
http://www.thenorthstar.info/?p=1097
Unfortunately, he did.
Louis Proyect
2012-07-07 22:04:10 UTC
Permalink
On 7/7/12 5:51 PM, Andrew Pollack wrote:
>
> All proportions guarded, I had one of those
> Lenin-reading-Vorwarts-in-August moments. Did Pham REALLY say these
> counterrevolutionary things?
> http://www.thenorthstar.info/?p=1097
> Unfortunately, he did.

If you want to debate Binh, go do it there. He is not subbed to
Marxmail, right?

In any case, Clay Claiborne is subbed here and has been saying just
about the same thing. Feel free to debate him if you choose, just as
long as you refrain from categorizing him as "counterrevolutionary".

My advice in general is to refrain from calling someone
"counterrevolutionary" on the basis of where they stand on such
questions. I had strong objections to giving political support to the
KLA as your group did but I would never have described Socialist Action
as counterrevolutionary.

In fact slinging around terms like that belongs to a dreary past that
has led to unfortunate splits. As far as I know, Socialist Action split
with another small group over differences like these.

We need to stop using distinctions like this as a litmus test.
Mark Lause
2012-07-07 22:12:06 UTC
Permalink
I don't think these things are presented so much as though they were
seriously raised as a litmus test. People and groups of people are
going to make mistakes. The notion that they aren't going to do so is
part of the misunderstanding of Marxism as a kind of social physics.

When groups engage in disputes over questions like this, it becomes
more like Edison and Westinghouse: competing capitalist concerns.

Still, fighting over these issues does provide an excuse for the
collective dismal failure of the organized socialist movement in the
U.S. to formulate a coherent and collaborative approach to minor
issues such as the 2012 elections.

ML
Andrew Pollack
2012-07-09 01:32:08 UTC
Permalink
Correct me if I'm wrong, Louis, but you have forwarded a number of Pham's
pieces to this list. Are you not also involved with North Star, which
published this reactionary tripe?

What's more, Pham through his writings over the last year or two has made
himself a figure, all proportions guarded, on the Left, so a critique of
his betrayal is warranted and indeed very necessary.

As for calling him counterrevolutionary: Pham himself calls
anti-intervention a counterrevolutionary position. And he race-baits anyone
who is against imperialist aid. So there's enough mudslinging to go around.

Anyway sometimes labels are precisely accurate, and Pham has crossed the
line to counterrevolution.

I must say I am disturbed that no-one else seems to care that we now have a
new addition to the cruise missile left, a new upholder of the right and
duty of imperialism to bring democracy to the benighted darker masses.
Louis Proyect
2012-07-09 01:47:39 UTC
Permalink
On 7/8/12 9:32 PM, Andrew Pollack wrote:

> Correct me if I'm wrong, Louis, but you have forwarded a number of Pham's
> pieces to this list. Are you not also involved with North Star, which
> published this reactionary tripe?
>
> What's more, Pham through his writings over the last year or two has made
> himself a figure, all proportions guarded, on the Left, so a critique of
> his betrayal is warranted and indeed very necessary.

Well, go ahead and write one. Just remember to stay within 35,000
characters or else it will bounce.

>
> As for calling him counterrevolutionary: Pham himself calls
> anti-intervention a counterrevolutionary position. And he race-baits anyone
> who is against imperialist aid. So there's enough mudslinging to go around.
>

Let me repeat. I have little use for making what the American left says
about situations in other countries a litmus test. I regard the ISO as
an important revolutionary group and SA as well, even though I disagree
with the ISO's analysis of Cuba and your group's endorsement of the KLA
in Kosovo.

http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/foreigners/2010/12/prime_minister_mob_boss.html

A new report says Kosovo's prime minister, Hashim Thaci, is a mob boss
involved in drug dealing and organ smuggling. Why don't Kosovars care?

By Joshua Kucera | Posted Wednesday, Dec. 15, 2010, at 6:33 PM ET

In most countries, a report by a respected international body that says
your prime minister is the head of a mafia ring involved in organ
smuggling might cause a bit of a political stir. But not in Kosovo.

According to a just-released Council of Europe report, Prime Minister
Hashim Thaci is the "boss" of a "mafia-like" group involved in various
criminal activities, mainly heroin smuggling. "[I]n confidential reports
spanning more than a decade, agencies dedicated to combating drug
smuggling in at least five countries have named Hashim Thaci and other
members of his 'Drenica Group' as having exerted violent control over
the trade in heroin and other narcotics," the report says.

But the most sensational detail, which has garnered the most headlines,
is Thaci's alleged involvement in organ smuggling. Over the last decade,
criminal groups from Kosovo and neighboring Albania have reportedly set
up a transnational organ-smuggling ring, either murdering victims to
harvest their organs or tricking them into "donating" the body parts on
false promises of payment. In Pristina, Kosovo's capital, seven
defendants, including a Turkish surgeon and an Israeli organ broker, are
currently standing trial for their involvement in a "clinic" named
Medicus. (The case was broken, the Guardian reports, when a young
Turkish "donor" fainted while waiting in line for his flight from
Pristina to Istanbul. Police investigated and found a fresh scar on his
abdomen. His kidney had been removed to be sold to a 74-year-old Israeli
man.)

The leaders of the war with Serbia now make up the backbone of Kosovo's
government, and the country's current police service is believed to be a
direct descendant of the KLA. What's more, in the Balkans, it's not
unusual for national leaders to have alleged ties to organized crime.
Montenegro's prime minister, Milo Djukanovic, was under criminal
investigation by Italian police for his role in cigarette smuggling (the
charges were dropped last year). Former Croatian Prime Minister Ivo
Sanader is currently in an Austrian jail, having fled his country on
Dec. 10, just before the Parliament lifted his immunity from prosecution
for a variety of corruption-related charges.


(clip)
Andrew Pollack
2012-07-09 02:06:16 UTC
Permalink
I think Louis's parallels are useful. I disagree with the ISOers
characterization of Cuba, Louis disagrees with SA's characterization of the
KLA. Butnone of us -- not SA, not the ISO, not Louis -- has ever favored
imperialist intervention in Cuba or the former Yugoslavia on any side.
That's why I consider the ISO and Louis to be comrades of mine.
I can no longer say that about Pham.

On Sun, Jul 8, 2012 at 9:47 PM, Louis Proyect <lnp3 at panix.com> wrote:

> Let me repeat. I have little use for making what the American left says
> about situations in other countries a litmus test. I regard the ISO as an
> important revolutionary group and SA as well, even though I disagree with
> the ISO's analysis of Cuba and your group's endorsement of the KLA in
> Kosovo.
>
>
Louis Proyect
2012-07-09 02:29:20 UTC
Permalink
On 7/8/12 10:06 PM, Andrew Pollack wrote:
> I think Louis's parallels are useful. I disagree with the ISOers
> characterization of Cuba, Louis disagrees with SA's characterization of the
> KLA. Butnone of us -- not SA, not the ISO, not Louis -- has ever favored
> imperialist intervention in Cuba or the former Yugoslavia on any side.
> That's why I consider the ISO and Louis to be comrades of mine.
> I can no longer say that about Pham.

That's fine.

Pham Binh will survive SA's condemnation. Quite frankly, I think he
would feel vindicated by it.
Manuel Barrera
2012-07-09 03:41:43 UTC
Permalink
Louis: "That's fine. Pham Binh will survive SA's condemnation. Quite frankly, I think he would feel vindicated by it."

Perhaps, Louis, but Binh may not survive calling anyone opposing Imperialist intervention based on Syrians asking for it as being counter-revolutionary. This position is very dangerous. It is no small matter, regardless of the intentions of those raising the hue and cry about it. I do not believe it is enough for one (you) to write about the fallacies of the "anti-anti-imperalist left" and then allow to go unanswered when someone takes that quite correct position, in my view, and distorts it into a position that falls over the other side (so to speak). Favoring imperialist intervention for whatever reason--today--is . . . an error. Allowing such a valiant class struggle fighter such as Binh to do so without calling him on it in any meaningful way is . . .disrespectful.
John Obrien
2012-07-09 05:00:04 UTC
Permalink
There appears to me little difference between the present Baath leader in Syria (Bashar al-Assad),
who is using military force against the nation's religious Suni majority, to stay in power

and that of that Baath leader in Iraq (Sadam Hussein) who used military force against
that nation's religious Shia majority, to stay in power.

and the same imperialists forces who want a regime change to serve their world strategic
interests - and not for any real concerns about human rights.

and it seems to me the same principles apply - that we should oppose imperialism and
its efforts to dominate the world. Assad is a brutal dictator and should be removed by
the Syrian people and a real socialist state needs to be established - but it should be
the Syrians and not the imperialist militaries. The imperialists plans to have weakened states in Iraq and in Yugoslavia succeeded(at least so far), by their military interventions. We should not support their doing soin Syria. The Syrian people had enough world powers control and exploit their nation. and I believe Pham Binh is wrong in not understanding this - and should state France,Britain, the United States, Turkey and Israel should not attack Syria - and we still demandAssad should give up power and hold real elections. Bashar al-Assad is no anti-imperialist,but just another usual dictator. And the big boy imperialists are the even bigger threatto peace and human rights. Pham Binh and everyone should recognize imperialism asa problem and not a solution for real change.

> From: mtomas3 at hotmail.com
> Date: Sun, 8 Jul 2012 22:41:43 -0500
> Subject: Re: [Marxism] North Star shows the way to imperialist intervention
>
>
>
> .
> Louis: "That's fine. Pham Binh will survive SA's condemnation. Quite frankly, I think he would feel vindicated by it."
>
> Perhaps, Louis, but Binh may not survive calling anyone opposing Imperialist intervention based on Syrians asking for it as being counter-revolutionary. This position is very dangerous. It is no small matter, regardless of the intentions of those raising the hue and cry about it.
Clay Claibirne
2012-07-09 06:13:55 UTC
Permalink
On 7/8/2012 10:00 PM, John Obrien wrote:
> Assad should give up power and hold real elections.
Well La De Da! Make that a resolution and we can all vote on it. We can
send a copy to Assad and I'm sure the Syrians dying tonight under his
shells in Homs, Hama, Idlib, Dara and Douma will be most pleased.

You are very quick to say what we should oppose, namely imperialist
intervention, fine. But do you have any proposal that doesn't require
Syrians to keep dying as long as he is willing to kill them.

I say again: *There can be no meaningful relief for the Syrian people
short of an armed response to Assad's violence.* All else is a sham that
allows his slaughter to continue.

Assad should have given up power and held real elections 18 month ago
when the Arab Spring first blossomed in Syrian. Instead he set his dogs
on them and so far many more that 17 thousand have been murdered. So to
suggest as a solution to the Syrian crisis at this late date that "Assad
should give up power and hold real elections" borders on criminal.

Interesting that you make no mention of Russian support for Assad
because right now it is Russian made tanks, artillery, helicopters,
migs, shells and bombs that are killing them, in Assad's hand of course
but not to worry because you are here to tell them that

"the big boy imperialists are the even bigger threat to peace and human
rights" than Assad. I don't think many Syrians would agree with you
right now. If you don't understand why, go to Douma and maybe it will
hit you.
John Obrien
2012-07-09 07:15:54 UTC
Permalink
I never stated that the Syrian people do not have a right to defend themselvesagainst brutal force from al-Assad mercenaries and loyalists attackingcivilian centers. What I said was that Marxists and all those who oppose imperialism,should not support France, Britain, United States, Turkey and Israelmilitaries attacking Syria. Obviously there will be a growing armedresistance to Bashar al-Assad's reign - but that needs to be done by the Syrians and not to support any imperialists military actions. A serious person can not ignore the bloodshed of Syrians takingplace, or can one ignore the reasons for this bloodshed, based onreligion - and flamed by the imperialists to distable and weakenSyria. If you believe that an imperialist military intervention will benefitthe Syrian people, please understand history's lessons on this -and re-think where this view and real policies and actions willlead to. It will not be a better government as we can witnessin both Iraq and Yugoslavia today. When a large power's military destroys or weakens another nation'smilitary, it strengthens imperialism - and encourgaes their furtherintervening in the internal situation of other nations. Did we notsee European colonialism spread around the world and earlierempires in this world - and always with some nice justification oftheir helping the unfortunate local peoples! One can not ignore U. S. imperialism as the major threat toworld peace and real justice and it only seeking strategic gainsfor world domination and not to support anyones rights or endlocal terror. It uses words and implies betterment, but deliversexploitation and death. It follows the British Colonial model andonly modernizes with some language but maintains the realpower of a large military dominant force. The U. S. militaryis not a liberating force comrade! I am also sorry to see peopledie and suffer under the al-Assad regime - but Syria is notcurrently expanding naval forces in the Pacific Ocean to preparefor military confrontation against China and it is the U. S. militarypartner Israel that most wants to destroy the Syrian military. Anyone living inside an imperialist nation must separate theirstatus from what the imperialist nation is doing to many otherpeople throughout the world - and not just look at only onenation, but see the bigger picture - of who benefits. Marxists and those struggling against injustice must always look at whobenefits and who is harmed or bettered by events and actions.There is no defense for U. S. imperialism's military weaponryand there is no excuse to not understand the strategic purposefor What comes from these military forces and actions. It willlikely not a better situation for most Syrians under Hillary Clinton'srule than Bashar al-Assad. Or do you believe her words andignore her nation's deeds?
> Date: Sun, 8 Jul 2012 23:13:55 -0700
> From: clayclai at gmail.com
> Subject: Re: [Marxism] North Star shows the way to imperialist intervention
> To: causecollector at msn.com
>

>
>

>
> You are very quick to say what we should oppose, namely imperialist
> intervention, fine. But do you have any proposal that doesn't require
> Syrians to keep dying as long as he is willing to kill them.
>
> I say again: *There can be no meaningful relief for the Syrian people
> short of an armed response to Assad's violence.* All else is a sham that
> allows his slaughter to continue.
>
> "the big boy imperialists are the even bigger threat to peace and human
> rights" than Assad. I don't think many Syrians would agree with you
> right now. If you don't understand why, go to Douma and maybe it will
> hit you.
> ________________________________________________
dave x
2012-07-09 07:58:01 UTC
Permalink
I don't know whether Pham has bent the stick too far in some of his
criticisms, I suspect he might. Still, it has been richly deserved. I
find most of it well on the mark. It is telling that the response to
this is pious warnings about 'crossing the line' or stern refusals of
comradeship. Every religion needs its heretics, I suspect Marxism is
no exception.
This conversation got me thinking about the earlier one on religion on
this list not too long ago, that stemmed from Louis posting some
statistic about how few in the US believe in evolution. I was strongly
tempted to reply to that debate due to my own experiences growing up
in the conservative Christian right but I did not as I still need more
time to articulate everything I want to say about those experiences. I
marvel at the refusal of so many to take the independent capacity of
religion seriously as a social/political movement. So many Marxists
would like religion to be able to reduce neatly down to class in some
economistic way. However it is an economism that has been abandoned in
so many other areas that one wonders why the rigidly economistic
interpretation of religion?
One thought I have had is that a serious inquiry on religion might
simply hit too close to home for many. Marxism, too survive has had to
turn into a quasi-dogma, a faith for dark times and when the call goes
out for it to be something more, for it to live up to the historical
moment, it falters and turns inward onto its dogma and its scriptures
unable to analyze the situation in a fresh way and come up with an
appropriate response.
Long ago Marx began his work with a critique of religion. It might be
something that we need to consciously renew if we are ever to make
socialist revolution a vital fighting force once again. This true not
only because of powerful reactionary religious movements and their
pull on the working class but because of Marxisms own demonstrated
capacity for religious ossification.
Clay Claibirne
2012-07-09 05:47:48 UTC
Permalink
On 7/8/2012 8:41 PM, Manuel Barrera wrote:
> Favoring imperialist intervention for whatever reason--today--is . . . an error.
This specifically has the potential to be a counter-revolutionary position.

Any such static, one size fits all, generalized position that doesn't
take in to account concrete conditions has that potential. It is
mechanistic not dialectical and it is not Marxism.

I know "--today--" is to ward off comparisons to earlier imperialist
interventions like say France support for the US revolution or the more
recent US imperialist support for the Soviet Union and the Viet Minh
during WW2, but it doesn't really fix the problem.

I think the Libyans have well demonstrated the counter-revolutionary
nature of that position because if the thuwar had refused NATO air
support on your advise, it is very unlikely that they would have had the
first free elections in their history yesterday, instead they probably
would still be slugging it out in a much longer and - for the people - a
much bloodier civil war like the people of Syria are facing now.

Of course such proclamations as "whatever reason" are easy as long as
one is not facing the practical tasks of making a revolution.
Manuel Barrera
2012-07-09 06:00:31 UTC
Permalink
" Any such static, one size fits all, generalized position that doesn't take in to account concrete conditions has that potential. It is mechanistic not dialectical and it is not Marxism."

I think I'll stick with being against imperialism in thought and deed. I think it's a materialist issue. The Marxist dialectic doesn't mean the class enemy is an ally. Really, it doesn't. And, if you do end up on this side of the class line when it actually makes a difference here, I'll welcome you.
Clay Claibirne
2012-07-09 06:24:19 UTC
Permalink
On 7/8/2012 11:00 PM, Manuel Barrera wrote:
> The Marxist dialectic doesn't mean the class enemy is an ally.
Wrong again. The Marxist dialectic means that "is" has very limited use
as a verb because it "is" generally, too general. It doesn't take into
account what "has been" and what "may be"

For example I think the US imperialism was an ally of the Soviet Union
and revolutionary forces worldwide against fascism in WW2. You obviously
think that an impossibility. I can think of many other examples in which
the revolutionary have been able to exploit contradictions among
imperialists to their advantage. Once you deny those possibilities you
seriously limit the possibility of revolution.
Louis Thiemann
2012-07-09 10:41:22 UTC
Permalink
Aren't your differences centered on two questions of *observation*,
questions which have nothing to do with theory? Isn't it (a) a disagreement
on how strong Assad is - whether or not he can be ousted without
assistance, and (b) on the nature of the FSA.

I don't see why these disagreements merit such a type of discussion. In
this situation it is very very hard to answer both of these questions, even
for most Syrians. Disagreements of observation are solved when one person
describes what exactly he has observed, and helps the other to make the
same observation. Then the other way around.
Manuel Barrera
2012-07-09 16:40:32 UTC
Permalink
"I can think of many other examples in which the revolutionary have been able to exploit contradictions among imperialists to their advantage. Once you deny those possibilities you seriously limit the possibility of revolution."

Nice trick--from "exploiting contradictions" to imperialists as allies --a little Stalinism never hurt nobody, huh? Oh, but wait, yes it did. Imperialists as allies "objectively" or otherwise isn't the same thing as exploiting contradictions. I absolutely love exploiting the contradictions of the capitalist class. Indeed, if the revolutionary left were to be much better at it--a point where I most wholeheartedly agree with Binh--we would be much better able to defend the Syrian revolution. Indeed, my participation--and recruitment to revolutionary politics--during the era of Vietnam was one of the greatest object lessons in exploiting contradictions among the imperialists. We exploited the demagoguery of the so-called "anti-war" senators and bourgeois liberals to stand up and oppose the imperialist war; we exploited the proletarian, and exploited, nature of the U.S. army to win over first, anti-war veterans, then anti-war G.I.s, then anti-war combat soldiers (not necessarily in that order) to help neutralize the effectiveness of the war machine. So, exploiting contradictions is an important tool of any true revolutionary fighter--we don't fight on the Enemy's terms, we fight on the masses'. However, for us to have been effective at "exploiting contradictions" we needed three important things: the revolutionary--that is, the completely anti-imperialist character of the Vietnamese revolutionary forces (regardless of their leadership's Stalinist character), the development of organized mass opposition to the imperialist war (and its machine, I might add), and, politically, our understanding of the objective class character of all the forces involved in that struggle including "contradictions" within the ruling classes, the intransigence of the rightist Vietnamese puppet governments and Stalinized NVA, and era of worldwide youth radicalization.

Perhaps such conditions will arise when it comes to Syria, but I hope you will agree that such conditions are not that clear as yet or necessarily going to be the same--it is correct that one doesn't engage in "cookie cutter" organizing. However, we will never become a force that can truly help the revolutionary character of the Syrian struggle against Assad unless we recognize the difference between "exploiting contradictions" and thinking of the imperialists as allies--objectively or not (as opposed "objectively" to support the revolution by aligning ourselves completely with bourgeois nationalists who may be seeking to usurp the struggle and most likely to use imperialist intervention expressly for their capitalist-inspired purposes).

If you really feel the need to work with imperialist allies, perhaps it might be useful if you went to the offices of Congress and began lining up anti-war senators and representatives to build massive anti-war demonstrations on the Capitol? You know, as opposed to "winning [revolutionary] friends and influencing [revolutionary] people" by nodding profusely in assent when Syrian revolutionary fighters--at the point of a gun--are forced to shout "hey, somebody--Hillary! Somebody--NATO! Somebody bomb this Syrian m. . .urderer before he shoots me!" Indeed, if a bunch of right-wing thugs came after me on the streets and were about to try to kill me, I'd probably call the cops and hope they aren't part of the same right-wing hate group so they could immediately protect me. That doesn't make me a defender of the capitalist state, it just makes me desperate. So, no, I have no difficulty exploiting contradictions, I'm just not going to call the police my friend or vote for more cops in the street; or, to the point, try to justify In Principle that the bourgeois state can be my ally.
Clay Claiborne
2012-07-10 14:55:59 UTC
Permalink
So you can understand someone being assaulted might call the police, but so
long as you are not being beaten up, you can maintain your ideological
"purity." So if a friend is being beaten up and ask you to call the police
for him [like supporting the call of the Syrian people for intervention]
your repsonse would be "I'm just not going to call the police my friend."

Have I got that right?

On Mon, Jul 9, 2012 at 9:40 AM, Manuel Barrera <mtomas3 at hotmail.com> wrote:

> ======================================================================
> Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message.
> ======================================================================
>
>
>
> "I can think of many other examples in which the revolutionary have been
> able to exploit contradictions among imperialists to their advantage. Once
> you deny those possibilities you seriously limit the possibility of
> revolution."
>
> Nice trick--from "exploiting contradictions" to imperialists as allies --a
> little Stalinism never hurt nobody, huh? Oh, but wait, yes it did.
> Imperialists as allies "objectively" or otherwise isn't the same thing as
> exploiting contradictions. I absolutely love exploiting the contradictions
> of the capitalist class. Indeed, if the revolutionary left were to be much
> better at it--a point where I most wholeheartedly agree with Binh--we would
> be much better able to defend the Syrian revolution. Indeed, my
> participation--and recruitment to revolutionary politics--during the era of
> Vietnam was one of the greatest object lessons in exploiting contradictions
> among the imperialists. We exploited the demagoguery of the so-called
> "anti-war" senators and bourgeois liberals to stand up and oppose the
> imperialist war; we exploited the proletarian, and exploited, nature of the
> U.S. army to win over first, anti-war veterans, then anti-war G.I.s, then
> anti-war combat soldiers (not necessarily in that order) to help neutralize
> the effectiveness of the war machine. So, exploiting contradictions is an
> important tool of any true revolutionary fighter--we don't fight on the
> Enemy's terms, we fight on the masses'. However, for us to have been
> effective at "exploiting contradictions" we needed three important things:
> the revolutionary--that is, the completely anti-imperialist character of
> the Vietnamese revolutionary forces (regardless of their leadership's
> Stalinist character), the development of organized mass opposition to the
> imperialist war (and its machine, I might add), and, politically, our
> understanding of the objective class character of all the forces involved
> in that struggle including "contradictions" within the ruling classes, the
> intransigence of the rightist Vietnamese puppet governments and Stalinized
> NVA, and era of worldwide youth radicalization.
>
> Perhaps such conditions will arise when it comes to Syria, but I hope you
> will agree that such conditions are not that clear as yet or necessarily
> going to be the same--it is correct that one doesn't engage in "cookie
> cutter" organizing. However, we will never become a force that can truly
> help the revolutionary character of the Syrian struggle against Assad
> unless we recognize the difference between "exploiting contradictions" and
> thinking of the imperialists as allies--objectively or not (as opposed
> "objectively" to support the revolution by aligning ourselves completely
> with bourgeois nationalists who may be seeking to usurp the struggle and
> most likely to use imperialist intervention expressly for their
> capitalist-inspired purposes).
>
> If you really feel the need to work with imperialist allies, perhaps it
> might be useful if you went to the offices of Congress and began lining up
> anti-war senators and representatives to build massive anti-war
> demonstrations on the Capitol? You know, as opposed to "winning
> [revolutionary] friends and influencing [revolutionary] people" by nodding
> profusely in assent when Syrian revolutionary fighters--at the point of a
> gun--are forced to shout "hey, somebody--Hillary! Somebody--NATO! Somebody
> bomb this Syrian m. . .urderer before he shoots me!" Indeed, if a bunch of
> right-wing thugs came after me on the streets and were about to try to kill
> me, I'd probably call the cops and hope they aren't part of the same
> right-wing hate group so they could immediately protect me. That doesn't
> make me a defender of the capitalist state, it just makes me desperate. So,
> no, I have no difficulty exploiting contradictions, I'm just not going to
> call the police my friend or vote for more cops in the street; or, to the
> point, try to justify In Principle that the bourgeois state can be my ally.
> ________________________________________________
> Send list submissions to: Marxism at greenhouse.economics.utah.edu
> Set your options at:
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>



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Linux Beach Productions
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Read my blogs at the Daily Ko <http://clay-claiborne.dailykos.com/>
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Tom Quinn
2012-07-10 19:55:24 UTC
Permalink
Sure, if you think the US should be the world's cop. Here's what
Phil Ochs had to say about that:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6_2x3JWWzvY



On Tue, Jul 10, 2012 at 7:55 AM, Clay Claiborne <clayclai at gmail.com> wrote:

> So you can understand someone being assaulted might call the police, but so
> long as you are not being beaten up, you can maintain your ideological
> "purity." So if a friend is being beaten up and ask you to call the police
> for him [like supporting the call of the Syrian people for intervention]
> your repsonse would be "I'm just not going to call the police my friend."
>
> Have I got that right?
>
Jeff
2012-07-11 15:46:42 UTC
Permalink
Now wasn't Lou just asking contributors to these discussions to avoid "one-liners" that don't really say anything, (especially in this case where it was in reply to a legitimate request for clarification by Clay's post) like this one:

At 12:55 10-07-12 -0700, Tom Quinn wrote:
>
>Sure, if you think the US should be the world's cop. Here's what
>Phil Ochs had to say about that.....

And then on the other hand, my last post provoked a reply from John Obrien which was anything but short and snappy, but rather surprisingly was addressed "Comrade Jeff," (even though it was sent to the entire list) and then went to "patiently explain" to me that imperialism is NOT a true friend to the oppressed of the earth, like I was fuckin born yesterday!

I'm not pissed at everyone on this list but I am disappointed that a lot of the serious posts and articles pointed to (such as Binh's article that this thread was supposedly addressing) aren't even discussed on their merits but only in terms of whether the author is a "counterrevolutionary" and retains the right to be called "comrade." Why should I or anyone contribute content for "discussion" if all that comes out of it is this sort of name-calling or condescending explanations of the evils of imperialism??

I'm going to wind up by wasting a little bandwidth and republish the THOUGHTFUL post written by Ken Hiebert (but under a different subject heading so some might have missed it), as he hasn't been identified as being on one or another pole of this discussion, but at least he's thinking and actually contributing some content (which I guess is enough to insure that his post doesn't receive attention or generate a respectful reply).

- Jeff



At 08:02 10-07-12 -0700, Ken Hiebert wrote:

This is also a response to North Star shows the way to imperialist intervention.
I am not overly concerned with what label people wish to put on Pham Binh. He is quite capable of speaking in his own defence. But there may be a bigger question behind this. if we label PB "counter-revlutionary" because of his stance on Libya, what do we say about the large number of Libyans who welcomed the imperialist intervention? I know how some people have answered this question. Just google Nato Rats and you'll see what I am talking about.

It is easy to write off whole populations because of disagreements with them. Let me start a list.
Tibetans
Kurds
Eastern Europeans
Citizens of Leningrad who voted to return to the name St. Petersburg.
People in China who erected the Goddess of Democracy. To me it looks suspiciously like the Statue of Liberty.

Each time we write off another population, we are more alone in the world. (I am using "we" to mean the left in general and not necessarily anyone on this list.) We still have the task of trying to connect with them. I don't think we are self-important if we believe we might have some political insights that may help them. This does not require us to hide our disagreements with them, but it means we have to look for some common ground from which to start a discussion.

For example, Iraq, 2003. It quickly became apparent that many Iraqis were not opposed to the imperialist intervention. This was not because they had illusions as to what the imperialists wanted. Many of them we simply happy to see Saddam Hussein gone. Sections of the left who were "soft" on Hussein had little basis to connect with Iraqis. Those sections of the left that made clear their opposition to Hussein had a starting point to connect with Iraqis. This was not unrealistic. In Vancouver we were in touch with Iraqis and so at one remove we were in touch with people in Iraq.
As I say, we do not have to agree with them. In fact, based on the experience since 2003, we can argue that we were right to oppose imperialist intervention. Iraq is so damaged by the imperialist intervention that the "Arab Spring" has by-passed Iraq.

We can be reminded that we small. (And mocked because of that as well.) But we are not entirely on the sidelines. Because he was careful how he addressed the Libyan opposition, Gilbert Achcar has had some possibility of connecting with the Syrian opposition. Last fall he was able to address a meeting of oppositionists in Sweden and made a case against calling for imperialist intervention. Of, course that was last October and the situation is very fluid.
By comparison, there is no indication of any connection between insurgent Syrians and the Cuban Communist Party or the PSUV led by Hugo Chavez. Based on their public pronouncements, it is hard to believe that they care at all about connecting with Libyans or with Syrians beyond the ruling circles. The closing of the Venezuelan embassy in Libya was just the icing on the cake. There is lots happening in Libya and the influence of Venezuela has been reduced by the absence of any diplomats.

People in Libya and Syria are autonomous. They don't have to agree with us and we don't have to agree with them. But we should look for every opportunity to reach out to them.

ken h
dave x
2012-07-11 17:35:04 UTC
Permalink
On Wed, Jul 11, 2012 at 8:46 AM, Jeff <meisner at xs4all.nl> wrote:
> ======================================================================
> Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message.
> ======================================================================
>"I'm not pissed at everyone on this list but I am disappointed that a lot of the serious posts and articles pointed to >(such as Binh's article that this thread was supposedly addressing) aren't even discussed on their merits but only in >terms of whether the author is a "counterrevolutionary" and retains the right to be called "comrade." Why should I or >anyone contribute content for "discussion" if all that comes out of it is this sort of name-calling or condescending >explanations of the evils of imperialism??"

The problem is that, as the 'name calling' indicates, Pham has hit
upon one or more articles of faith, inspiring a quasi-religious mode
of argumentation. Growing up on the religious right you learn that
some questions will get you in hot water, they 'cross a line' and if
you aren't careful you will find yourself excluded from the body of
the faithful. It doesn't matter how good your arguments are or how
thoughtful you are being, because the purpose of the discussion isn't
to better understand the issues or to arrive at truth. Rather the
purpose is to maintain group cohesion and identity. That is why so
many Christians cite Bible verses at you and ignore what you actually
say when you try and engage them in rational argument. It isn't about
rational argument. I think Binh has raised a lot of deep and troubling
questions and I think there are legitimate arguments to be had with
Binh, but most of this amounts to some form of quasi-religious
dogmatism.
Manuel Barrera
2012-07-11 19:25:36 UTC
Permalink
Jeff Republishes Ken H:
"People in Libya and Syria are autonomous. They don't have to agree with
us and we don't have to agree with them. But we should look for every
opportunity to reach out to them."





Here is a thoughtful reply:

First question: To whom
in Syria do we reach out; or Libya or, for that matter, the people of the
United States? Do we reach out to the "Syrian people"? Or, do we
reach out to the Syrian workers and farmers? Or, do we reach out to the Syrian
revolutionaries involved in the struggle against Assad? And, no, the easy
answer of "to them all" is insufficient. In the case of the Syrian
"people", are we trying to reach out to the elements of what passes
for the liberal bourgeoisie, the Syrian army regulars and their generals,
the Syrian masses in the street and the revolutionaries among them because they
are all fighting Assad and his own large constituency still supportive of him?
You should be able to see where I'm going here. I don't really believe any of
you or Binh are taking a "nationalist" view of "reaching
out".



In reading Binh
carefully, I get the distinct impression that he and some of his supporters on
this list are interested in being able to say "yes" to Syrian
"revolutionaries" when those revolutionaries feel they must be
willing to allow imperialist aid so that they don't get massacred as a way to
"reach out". [ I should say here that I am a supporter of Binh on
most if not all things except his strident belief that anyone who opposes his position
on Syria is counterrevolutionary; a rather "knee-jerk" reaction of
his own I might add]. Now, I am not really sure--at least from reading Binh's
view or from any of the supporters of that position--that I really understand
(a) whether these revolutionaries actually are "revolutionary" or (b)
who such revolutionaries are. It might be useful to know to whom in Syria this
position is trying to reach.



Second question: What
specifically are we supporting among the myriad demands by the variegated
groups and currents in the Assad opposition with regard to Imperialist aid?
Have I missed something either in the bourgeois press or the revolutionary
press where there is a generalized call adopted by large sections of the Syrian
mass movement to "bring in the imperialist troops" (or, even
"HELP!" NATO/USA We Demand You Kill Assad For Us!)? Are we being
asked to call for Imperialist aid because there is an organized revolutionary
opposition serving as a vanguard that has issued such a call for help from the
revolutionary Marxists throughout the world? Or, are we simply looking at what
is happening in Syria, rightfully outraged by the bloodshed at the hands of
Assad, and--like the Imperialists--opining that "something's got to be
done" and because the Imperialists have a ready war machine
"handy", well, let's use them to get that murdering scoundrel
out.



To be plain and not be accused of simply being facetious, the first part of my
question indicates that revolutionaries must base themselves on a real
understanding of the forces within the struggle and find a meaningful, and
"thoughtful" way to promote support for a revolutionary struggle that
not only helps, but is not a hindrance either to comrade revolutionaries on the
ground or, most important, to the interests of Syria's (in this case) working
masses. The second part of my set of questions indicates that perhaps taking a
moralistic (albeit a humanist moralism) view and offering opinions to a wholly
volatile and diverse mass opposition with multiple class perspectives about how
"we are with you" and "we care" all primarily based on
bourgeois media hype intended to justify imperialist intervention is perhaps a
"knee-jerk" reaction.





Third question: Why is seeking imperialist aid--a desire of the bourgeoisie in
Syria and a perceived necessity by some "revolutionary" elements in
the mass movement--helpful in "reaching out" to the Syrian people? Is
the relationship of forces within the Syrian opposition that should the
Imperialists carry out their "limited" mission of aiding the
opposition (making the enormously dubious assumption that such limited aid is
truly NATO/USA's only intent) the revolutionary forces could successfully stop
Imperialism from further incursions or helping establish an equally oppressive
bourgeoisie, but one that would only be oppressive to the previously oppressive
sectors of Syrian society (just like in Iraq between Sunni and Shiite)?
Specifically, are the revolutionary forces really capable of leading a Syrian
workers' revolution once Assad is overthrown with Imperialist aid to "get
them started"? And, are these revolutionary forces (the ones Binh and
others seem to want revolutionary Marxists to support) actually revolutionary?
What evidence and analysis provides us with this understanding? And, no, I
certainly do not require a complete certitude about this nature of the
revolutionary forces; only that we have thought that part of it sufficiently to
be confident about the distinctions among the forces coalescing against Assad.




The moralistic argument that we are being "Ivory Tower" by even
asking such questions seems precisely unthoughtful and Binh's charge that those
who disagree with his frustration with the Marxist Left for engaging in
"knee-jerk" reaction by opposing Imperialism when it tries to intervene
with platitudes--and guns--about stopping the genocide of the people seem more
like a knee-jerk reaction albeit based on a justifiable humanist concern. One
has to ask whether such justified concern should be applied elsewhere and
throughout the world? Mexico is being beset by both government and criminal
elements resulting in thousands being killed. Is there a
"humanitarian" mission for imperialism to "save" the
Mexican people from . . .themselves? Honduras is undergoing massive repression
of the workers and peasants movement by murderous regime. How 'bout there? Or,
say? What about Afghanistan? Shouldn't we "Rethink" imperialist
intervention there because women are having their noses cut off by the Taliban
(according to the capitalist media/Pentagon/corrupt Afghan regime)? Hell, are
We sufficiently strong--at least intellectually--to "work with"
Imperialism whenever we see a need to overthrow corrupt regimes where
we--together with Imperialism--can agree? At least we could "do some
good". You know, even if it's not so good?





And, to avoid the charge of exaggeration, let me explain the underlying
points behind my question. It seems to me that the call for supporting
revolutionaries in supporting Imperialist aid against Assad is attempting to
raise the strategies and tactics of the Syrian opposition--led primarily by
sections of the bourgeois army and some revolutionary forces--determined at the
point of a gun and in serious danger of the annihilation of innocent Syrians to
a principle. I believe that is the inadvertent meaning behind Binh's knee-jerk
frustration for revolutonary Marxist "intransigence" in opposing any
Imperialist aid for any reason. For me, this position is not a knee-jerk
reaction, but one carefully considered both by history and by the circumstances
on the actual ground of the Syrian revolution. Some of our Syrian comrades and
sisters and brothers may wish us to lobby Congress for imperialist aid because
they are desperate, but we know that only the organized mass opposition and principled
dedication to the mass socialist revolution can accomplish what the Syrian
people need and ultimately want. It may pain us all to know this cold, hard,
often unsatisfying realization, but the Syrian people must win this battle
themselves on that ground and with our solidarity, the ire we can build against
the tyrannical regime, and the blows we can wield against Imperialism's designs
for their country and the rest of the world.

There simply are No Shortcuts to
removing capitalism from this earth.
DCQ
2012-07-09 22:06:23 UTC
Permalink
I think comrades here, and the left generally, would do well to step back away from rhetoric like that is the title here. I mean, I'm used to folks like me being labelled an "objective imperialist" by others on the left (just see the recent exchange on Cuba on this list), so this is nothing new. But it is tiresome, unhelpful, and childish. And it's frankly embarrassing. And ultimately, no one in the outside world really cares (sectarian point-scoring at its most pathetic).

As much as I think Pham Binh can come across as a self-righteous, know-it-all prick in his writings, what does it even mean when someone says "I no longer consider him a comrade"? It sounds like something my older brother would say when he would kick me out of his "club" when I was 6. Not a comrade, really? So you wouldn't lock arms with him at an occupy demonstration being attacked by cops? Please.

On the main issues involved--Libya and Syria--these are not simple issues. Rote transcription from positions on similar situations from the past sometimes works. But it's lazy, even when it is enough (capitalism does keep throwing up similar situations from the graveyards of the past). I honestly have been pretty baffled by the clumsiness of most of the left in regards to Libya and Syria, watching positions boil down to a simplistic either-or, support intervention or oppose intervention, as if they were in a competition with Lenin's ghost awarding points for "best slogan on X."

What really is the utility of a tiny propaganda group (much less an individual on an email list) "calling for" something? To raise a slogan in a movement? Yes, good, go ahead. To create a clear pole of attraction around an issue, even if there is no movement? Ok, I guess that can work too. Beyond those, what? In something as complex and nuanced and important as the Libyan chapter in the Arab Awakening, why do we *have* to boil our positions down to sound bites?

But what I think Libya and Syria in particular remind us is that old idea that people make their own history, but not in circumstances of their own choosing. On the one hand, the Libyan revolution was definitely a part of the Arab Spring, an oppressed people denied basic democratic rights rising up against a brutal dictatorship. On the other hand, the US used its military power to throw an uncertain and ultimately expendable (arent they all?) new ally under the bus in a "hail mary" effort to reassert some authority in the region.

Depending on what people chose to emphasize or downplay, they decided they were either fine with the intervention because the rebels asked for it or opposed to it because the US is the main counter revolutionary force in the world today. The fact that *both* these contradictory things are true should have been an occasion for people who supposedly engage in dialectical thinking to shine. Oh well.

I don't think there was anything to "call" for here. History was happening, whatever any of us called for. And it should have been an opportunity to discuss the issues in depth and learn from them, rather than worrying about our "line."

The comparison with the American revolution was brought up repeatedly. All caveats aside, I think this is valid, though there is much more to say on the subject than I generally saw. Yes, the reactionary absolutist French monarchy aided the American revolution. And all the history textbooks are correct when they point out that this aid was crucial to the revolution's victory. But that doesn't mean they necessarily would have lost if it hadn't. Comrades probably know there was a real debate about slavery amongst the revolutionaries, many fine with it and benefitting from it, and other opposed to it--and not just on ideological/moral grounds, but with the idea that freeing the slaves would provide a huge army for the revolutionaries. Had the French not aided the Americans, the Americans would have been faced with the choice of defeat or freeing and allying with the slaves (the same logic applies to colonial attitudes to native Americans). The same exact principle ultimately came into play during the American Civil War.

I don't want to engage in a "what if" flight of fancy. But all revolutions start off "conservative." The logic of the revolution then propels people to what we call the left, to an understanding of how to complete it. *Unless*--and this is important--something interrupts the process. Revolutions, like the rest of history, travel along paths of least resistance. The French military intervention in the American Revolution *conservatized* it, aiding the most conservative sections (those most amenable to working closely with French "imperialism") and putting off those questions about slavery for nearly a century (and in the case of native Americans, indefinitely).

Russia's intervention in the Spanish Civil War had a similar effect, conservatizing the revolution, weakening and even reversing its revolutionary process (so much so that Franco was able to win). And while most on this list would quibble, I see Russia's intervention in various post-WWII third-world liberation movements in the same way, strengthening (and sometimes replacing and acting as) the conservative nationalist leaderships. (Many other aspects were at play here of course, but I hope folks can see my point.)

Likewise, US intervention undoubtedly strengthened the most conservative elements (rich, Western oriented, opportunist, and racist) of the Libyan revolution, and conservatized the revolution. Much was made of the racist scapegoating, attacks, and even murders by (some of) the rebels, and rightly so. Had the US not intervened, the rebels would have had to confront the issue of exploited black African migrants (and mercenaries). Given Gaddafi's racist treatment of them before, it's not hard to see where this could have gone (and where it still might go, and must go if the revolution is to continue).

Additionally, we must also remember that the US is incredibly inept at imperialism. The botches and screw-ups that mark the history of US imperialism must make the queen of England embarrassed. It always wants it to be simple and easy, but it never is. Just because the US wants a certain outcome in Libya, doesn't mean it will get it. I remember talking with someone last summer who argued the "Egyptian-revolution-good, Libyan-revolution-bad" line. But I believed and argued then (and this became clearer as the year went on), that the US was probably happier with the state of the Egyptian revolution with the SCAF in charge, than with the Libyan one in which they only had a toehold. I still think that's roughly true (though things continue to develop in both places).

A final point that bears mentioning. Folks of course know what happened to France a few years after they supported the American Revolution. Now I am not saying that because the US intervened in the Libyan Revolution that that will lead to a revolutionary moment here as a result. But playing with revolutions is dangerous for big powers, even in times of stability, let alone in times of crisis. And at the very least, it does allow questions to be asked (why intervene in Libya, but not Bahrain?). And which is more likely to inspire revolutionaries: politically-compromised Libyan rebels voting and debating things in a (relatively) free press, or politically "pure" Libyan rebels hanging from town squares as martyrs? I'm not sure, but while the process has definitely slowed, the revolutionary momentum has not stopped in the Arab world (or the rest of the world for that matter).

What is important is for revolutionaries to build connections with each other in different countries, to support them in any way they can, learn as much as they can from each other, and prepare for the battles to come.

Soli,
DCQ
DCQ
2012-07-09 22:19:42 UTC
Permalink
On Jul 9, 2012, at 6:06 PM, DCQ wrote:

> I think comrades here, and the left generally, would do well to step back away from rhetoric like that is the title here.

By "here," I was referring to the post titled "North Star shows the way to imperialist intervention." I changed my own title when I began drifting afield.
Jeff
2012-07-09 11:11:02 UTC
Permalink
I think Pham Binh's article really hit the nail on the head in relation to
the utter failure of most of the left to do what the left used to be known
for: supporting popular revolution. If anything, he has understated the
danger of leftists becoming -- but only in actual situations, mind you!! --
an impediment to revolutions which they are not themselves leading.

But let's get beyond the name-calling, because there are two different
definitions of "counter-revolutionary" in play:

1) Your party has a "plan" for world revolution, and various positions you
have developed in line with that master plan, so those who sharply
criticize those positions (whether they are on the right, left, or
whatever) are therefore "counter-revolutionary."

2) An actual revolution is underway (such as in Libya or Syria) and a
group/party/person decides to oppose that revolution (whether or not they
see it as an actual revolution), so they are called "counter-" (against)
"revolutionary"

Somehow definition #2 makes a little more sense to me, but never mind
labels. I understand, and shall comment on the flawed logic that allows one
to so self-righteously employ definition #1 and call their opposition to
revolution "revolutionary" and visa-versa:

At 22:00 08-07-12 -0700, John Obrien wrote:
>
>There appears to me little difference between the present Baath leader in
>Syria (Bashar al-Assad) .... [and] Baath leader in Iraq (Sadam Hussein)....

I couldn't agree more. Jumping to the flawed conclusion:

>and it seems to me the same principles apply.....

Let's see: there is little difference between A and B, so in situation 1
regarding A and situation 2 regarding B, "the same principles apply."
Period. While mentioning NOTHING SPECIFIC about situations 1 or 2.

> that we should oppose imperialism and
>its efforts to dominate the world.

Now anyone who doesn't oppose imperialism or supports imperialist
domination of the world certainly doesn't belong on this list, and I
believe Louis would have thrown them off the list a long time ago. What is
really being implied by the above comparison between Saddam Hussein and
Bashar al-Assad, is that anyone who opposed the imperialist onslaught on
Iraq (again, everybody on this list) MUST focus solely on that possibility
and advance similar slogans when there is talk (and for 15 months, ONLY
talk!) of imperialist intervention in Syria. And ignore any other aspect of
what is going on there (which happens to be a revolution, but I guess the
word "revolution" is likewise an official trademark owned by THE
"revolutionary" party).

I think it would be great if the international left could find ways to
concretely aid the ongoing Arab revolution (including in Syria) as
advocated in Pham Binh's article. But short of that, the left needs to
avoid inadvertently taking the wrong side in struggles for state power in
countries they don't have to live in. Simply because "the same principles
apply."

And by the way, opposition to the Libyan or Syrian revolutions by the
international left doesn't do anything to stop those revolutions (and the
imperialists plans in these situations are hardly affected by large antiwar
demonstrations, let alone a few hundred Stalinists rallying in favor of a
discredited dictator). What it does do is to make the left look
"counterrevolutionary" (definition 2) to the people of those countries, and
opposed to progress in their countries. And it weakens the actual leftists
from those countries participating in those revolutions or taking part in
elections after the regime has been overthrown. And consequently it
forestalls the progress of those revolutionary movements toward socialist
revolution, if that happens to be of any concern......

- Jeff
John Obrien
2012-07-09 18:20:52 UTC
Permalink
Comrade Jeff,


As a person who does not belong to any political party, I have no
party line to follow. But as a Marxist, I do follow an anti-imperialist
viewpoint and understand the role of corporate owned media.

I have been and remain a supporter of the Arab (Spring) Awakening,
unlike the United States government and other imperialist interests.
I do not support the Bashar al-Assad government and hope it is
replaced. Just like I want the Bahrain, Oman, Yemen and Saudi leaders
removed - but here the United States government does not want that.

But I do not confuse support for local Syrian opposition and hopes
to remove a dictator, from then supporting to various degrees the
imperialists interests. I support popular revolution, but I do not
see the U. S. government military, as a source for this support.

I have no problem with arming the Syrian people, but I do with
having the U. S. government in any of its forms involve and try
to subvert both the Syrian opposition to Assad and blunt the
Arab Awakening. I have the real intersts of the Syrian people
and their future, by warning against giving the United States
government and its proxies any legitimate right to intervene in
Syria. Bashar al-Assad will be removed, but it needs to be by
the Syrians and not the U. S. governemnt. We should give
no support to either the Syrian or U. S. governments, only to
the people of Syria.

In the later half of the 1960's, an even bloodier conflict took
place in Nigeria, when efforts by many Ibo people sought to
form a separate nation, around religious/tribal based reasons,
which then the same U. S. government (under Richard Nixon)
was then issuing public denounciations of the violence to the
Ibo people. Of course Nixon actually cared little about the actual
conditions of the Ibo people or any Nigerians, but to just
use this for their strategic regional and international purposes.

Images of starved Ibo babies were spread across the U. S.
media and many liberals anxiously called for Nigeria to be
broken up. This would benefit the oil companies and various
Christian groups, but then the world left understood the real
role and purpose of the United States in their supposed public
caring about human rights and starving babies. Today this same
U. S. government partners with the current Nigerian government
and there is no mention or caring of the Ibo people today!

The same U. S. government (under Bill Clinton) complained
about the Yugoslav and Serbian governments, supported the
disastrous policies of the German government urging the
breakup of the Yugoslav nation and the corporate media
showed images of starved prisoners in Yugoslavia and the
shellings on market places. The most covered media reporter
shown then was Christiane Amanpour of ABC and later CNN.She was and remains a schill for U. S. imperialist interests, asothers in the supposedly concerned corporate media. The same objective Amanpour is married to James Rubin, whoserved as a senior U. S. State Department official for BOTH BillClinton and George W. Bush and Amanpour and Rubin are bothbig Hillary Clinton fans. You know Hillary - who protested theVietnam War and now leads the U. S. State Department.
A basic rule of politics I have learned is always follow the
money and the interests, to determine what is really happening.
Letting the corporate media decide on your political support,
leads you to want to believe the Nazi government media
coverage of dead Germans in Danzig and the oppressed
Germans in Czechoslovakia! Surely whatever the corporatemedia shows, must be the truth - unless you are aware andpay attention to what the purpose of the imperialists corporatemedia is for. It is not to care about poor or oppressed peopleand make people aware, but to shape support for U. S. and its partners strategic and financial interests. You are not using the imperialists, or taking advantage of anycontradictions, you are only dangerously being enamored bythe corporate propaganda that the U. S. government and itsmilitary are a liberating force for real change. They are not! The same death merchant imperialist governments do notcare about people dying or injustice, they only care abouttheir strategic and financial interests comrade. Where isthe corporate media in the Congo, where millions havedied - or even the local conditions of poverty and diseasein United States cities and rural areas caused by the samecoprporate interests? Any huge outcry over General Electric,Exxon, Raytheon, etc. by this corporate media? If youdo not trust this corporate media, how can you believetheir coverage of Syria? Or are your sources morelegitimate, to know what and who the forces at workare. Do the Syrian left groups urge support for the imperialist nations to militarily intervene, or they alsooppose this dangerous call. If I was in Syria, I would take weapons from anyoneto defend myself against murderous troops and otherforces, but without consenting to imperialist controland would oppose U. S. military bombings and invasion.I would prefer China and Russia to provide these arms,but also understand that the U. S. and its allies havedrawn a line and stated Syria is under their domain! And this is the real world comrade - with imperialistsdividing up the world for spheres of control and notfor concerns about human rights! I side with the Syrian people and believe they will triumph overboth Bashar and the Hillary Clinton's of this world,by setting up a workers government - and not beingjust used by U. S. imperialism.





> Date: Mon, 9 Jul 2012 13:11:02 +0200
> From: meisner at xs4all.nl
> Subject: Re: [Marxism] North Star shows the way to imperialist intervention


>
>
> I think Pham Binh's article really hit the nail on the head in relation to
> the utter failure of most of the left to do what the left used to be known
> for: supporting popular revolution. If anything, he has understated the
> danger of leftists becoming -- but only in actual situations, mind you!! --
> an impediment to revolutions which they are not themselves leading.
>

>
>
>
> I think it would be great if the international left could find ways to
> concretely aid the ongoing Arab revolution (including in Syria) as
> advocated in Pham Binh's article. But short of that, the left needs to
> avoid inadvertently taking the wrong side in struggles for state power in
> countries they don't have to live in. Simply because "the same principles
> apply."
>
>
> - Jeff
>
>
>
>
>
Tom Quinn
2012-07-11 15:17:38 UTC
Permalink
Yeah but, should we become cheerleaders for imperialist intervention
on this basis? Isn't that exactly the approach people like
Christopher Hitchens took on Iraq in 2003? Quite frankly, I'm more
likely to give credence to the outlook of Ron Paul than that of
liberal interventionists as I think we have no business injecting
American military power into "foreign faction fights" absent some huge
moral imperative of the kind that existed in World War 2.

Here's a take on this from 2011 regarding Libya, "Liberals March to
War". Sad when self avowed right wingers are to the "left" of certain
liberals and ostensible marxists. Then again, we are on the eve of
the centennial of the infamous imperialist "Great War" in which
liberals and social democrats did yeoman work in justifying which in
the US involved covering for one of the biggest liberal frauds in
history: Woodrow Wilson. In Germany this involved in part casting the
war as one of liberation of the Russians from the feudal yoke of
Tsarism which Marxist historiographical rhetoric was helpful in
justifying.

http://original.antiwar.com/justin/2011/03/22/liberals-march-to-war/


On Mon, Jul 9, 2012 at 4:11 AM, Jeff <meisner at xs4all.nl> wrote:
>
> I think Pham Binh's article really hit the nail on the head in relation to
> the utter failure of most of the left to do what the left used to be known
> for: supporting popular revolution. If anything, he has understated the
> danger of leftists becoming -- but only in actual situations, mind you!! --
> an impediment to revolutions which they are not themselves leading.
>
Craig Brozefsky
2012-07-11 15:34:24 UTC
Permalink
>On Mon, Jul 9, 2012 at 4:11 AM, Jeff <meisner at xs4all.nl> wrote:
>> I think Pham Binh's article really hit the nail on the head in relation to
>> the utter failure of most of the left to do what the left used to be known
>> for: supporting popular revolution. If anything, he has understated the
>> danger of leftists becoming -- but only in actual situations, mind you!! --
>> an impediment to revolutions which they are not themselves leading.

This is a false dichotomy in my mind, it's like choosing off the freedom
of choice menu.

There are many other ways I could support popular revolutions abroad
other than agitating for foreign troops on the ground. The reduction of
solidarity to such questions shows just how fucking shallow the
political imagination, let alone experience, is amongst those insisting
*THIS* is the defining position.

This is not an act of solidarity, this is registering a tweet, or
sending a facebook update to your friends advocating for something that
you will not have to do, but instead can watch on television and in the
newspapers as it unfolds.

It's wagering social capital with the hope that the return on your
investment can be recouped on the backs of other people in some other
place.

--
Craig Brozefsky <craig at red-bean.com>
Premature reification is the root of all evil
Tom Quinn
2012-07-11 15:38:30 UTC
Permalink
Right and let's not forget a glaring example of this kind of outcome:
the Philippines, Cuba and Puerto Rico in 1898.

On Wed, Jul 11, 2012 at 8:34 AM, Craig Brozefsky <craig at red-bean.com> wrote:

> There are many other ways I could support popular revolutions abroad
> other than agitating for foreign troops on the ground. . . .
>
> It's wagering social capital with the hope that the return on your
> investment can be recouped on the backs of other people in some other
> place.
>
Shane Mage
2012-07-11 16:53:23 UTC
Permalink
On Jul 11, 2012, at 11:17 AM, Tom Quinn wrote:
>
> Yeah but, should we become cheerleaders for imperialist
> intervention...absent some huge
> moral imperative of the kind that existed in World War 2.

If Tom Quinn is looking for a "moral imperative" like that for
imperialist intervention in the second Imperialist World War he will
find it much more easily in Syria, Libya, or even Iraq. The
Rooseveltian/Churchillian/Stalinian war policy was nothing short of
genocidal, both actively (the extermination bombings of German cities
from Hamburg to Dresden, the Tokyo firestorm raid, Hiroshima,
Nagasaki) and complicitly (the Unconditional Surrender doctrine
designed to prevent any overthrow of the Hitler genocidal regime by
the Wehrmacht High Command, the sustained refusal to bomb the railroad
lines to the death camps, the refusal to admit refugee war victims to
their countries, the murderous ethnic cleansing of Volksdeutsch from
eastern and central Europe)--all in addition to the "normal" purpose
of frustrating the aims of their rivals and of preserving and then
getting control over the colonial domains of the "Allies."

If the devil invites you to supper, better to refuse than just to
bring a long spoon.




Shane Mage

"Thunderbolt steers all things." Herakleitos of Ephesos, fr. 64
Tom Quinn
2012-07-11 19:32:12 UTC
Permalink
Shane is expressing the traditional Trotskyist view of World War 2,
shared only by them and a few right wing libertarians, that there
really wasn't any material difference between the allies and the axis
and that guys like Roosevelt and Hitler were really moral equivalents
and thus the Second World War should have been opposed as in essence a
replay of the World War 1. I have never agreed with that view and I
would concede that that is in part conditioned by my upbringing in
this country in a family of proud World War 2 veterans. Nonetheless,
the SWPers and libertarians like Lawrence Dennis were entitled to
their views, which they courageously clung to even in the face of
criminal prosecution, and in the case of Cannon and the SWPers,
imprisonment.

Nonetheless, Lincoln and the Union armies committed numerous crimes,
like aspects of Sherman's march to the sea. Did that make them moral
equivalents with the Confederates? obviously not. History rarely
operates in a pure manichean fashion between polar moral opposites in
practice. It sure didn't in Russia during its revolution and civil
during 1917-21.

On Wed, Jul 11, 2012 at 9:53 AM, Shane Mage <shmage at pipeline.com> wrote:

> If Tom Quinn is looking for a "moral imperative" like that for imperialist
> intervention in the second Imperialist World War he will find it much more
> easily in Syria, Libya, or even Iraq. The
> Rooseveltian/Churchillian/Stalinian war policy was nothing short of
> genocidal, both actively (the extermination bombings of German cities from
> Hamburg to Dresden, the Tokyo firestorm raid, Hiroshima, Nagasaki)
Louis Proyect
2012-07-11 19:42:22 UTC
Permalink
On 7/11/2012 3:32 PM, Tom Quinn wrote:

> Shane is expressing the traditional Trotskyist view of World War 2,
> shared only by them and a few right wing libertarians, that there
> really wasn't any material difference between the allies and the axis
> and that guys like Roosevelt and Hitler were really moral equivalents
> and thus the Second World War should have been opposed as in essence a
> replay of the World War 1.

That might have been true from 1940 to 1960 but not afterwards. A
whole generation of historians who studied with William Appleman
Williams and others from the Progressivist tradition going back to
Charles Beard rejected the "Good War" hypothesis. Among them were
Gar Alperovitz and Gabriel Kolko.

Furthermore, beyond the Trotskyists and the rightwing
isolationists, there were pacifists like Lew Hill who went to form
Pacifica radio in 1946.

It's true that most on the left backed FDR but so did it back the
internment of Japanese-Americans, a no-strike pledge and all the
rest of the shit that went along with it.
Tom Quinn
2012-07-11 20:09:09 UTC
Permalink
Yes and one of them was the worthy David Dellinger who went to prison.
And yes, these historians have served to demythologize World War 2
even for those who might not accept their ultimate conclusions. Below
is the text of a letter I sent to the New York Times regarding a
recent review of the latest book on Hitler in the World War 2 "allied
propaganda" hack genre which in essence asks the question, how was a
loser like Hitler able to rise to such power and wreak such havoc
(what Lincoln Rockwell in his 1967 Playboy interview with Alex Haley
referred to as "all that hooey about Hitler")? Hey, how did a
functional illiterate and second rate failure of a Hollywood actor
like Reagan get to be US President?

Dagmar Herzog?s review of A.N. Wilson?s ?Hitler? is well taken, but
her critique does not go far enough in deconstructing what is in
essence another example of superficial World War 2 hack work. While
surely Hitler may not be a person deserving of any fair treatment and
while certainly the exigencies of World War 2 made cartoonish attacks
on the enemy Leader fair game, that historic contest ended 70 years
ago, calling now for a more objective and professional approach to
this subject, particularly by those who claim to be academic
historians. Moreover, that approach trivializes fascism and the
Second World War by reducing it to a question of the character and
quirks of a single individual.

Thus, that during the First World War Hitler fought in 49 different
battles and was blinded by poison gas and ultimately was awarded
Germany's highest military honor, the Iron Cross, gets ignored, either
out of intellectual dishonesty on the part of the author, or because
of a lazy cherry picking of facts by someone who really doesn't
command his subject matter. Moreover, that such a supposedly lazy and
inconsequential person as Hitler, whose commanders ostensibly had no
confidence in, could be appointed a political officer by the general
staff in 1919 during the suppression of the Spartacist uprising and
then be involved in an attempted coup in 1924 with Field Marshal
Luddendorf, a German figure comparable to Pershing or MacArthur, is
beyond me.

Thus, the question comes to mind, in what sense was Hitler a
mediocrity? as a political gangster? Perhaps if he had had the
patrician bona fides of the likes of Neville Chamberlain-or George W.
Bush-he would have been less of one? As Hitler biographer John Toland
once asked, how can a person who led a nation in conquering a third of
the Earth, causing the death of 50 million people be viewed as a
mediocrity, "run of the mill" or a pathetic loser? Egregious yes,
mediocre no.

Adolf Hitler was no mere seasoned thug, but a world class political
gangster and counter-revolutionary imperialist of the first rank.


On Wed, Jul 11, 2012 at 12:42 PM, Louis Proyect <lnp3 at panix.com> wrote:
>
> That might have been true from 1940 to 1960 but not afterwards. A whole
> generation of historians who studied with William Appleman Williams and
> others from the Progressivist tradition going back to Charles Beard rejected
> the "Good War" hypothesis. Among them were Gar Alperovitz and Gabriel Kolko.
>
> Furthermore, beyond the Trotskyists and the rightwing isolationists, there
> were pacifists like Lew Hill who went to form Pacifica radio in 1946.
>
> It's true that most on the left backed FDR but so did it back the internment
> of Japanese-Americans, a no-strike pledge and all the rest of the shit that
> went along with it.
Jeff
2012-07-11 17:02:17 UTC
Permalink
At 08:17 11-07-12 -0700, Tom Quinn wrote:
>
>Yeah but, should we become cheerleaders for imperialist intervention
>on this basis? Isn't that exactly the approach people like
>Christopher Hitchens took on Iraq in 2003? Quite frankly, I'm more
>likely to give credence to the outlook of Ron Paul

Excuse me, but the outlook of Ron Paul is that he doesn't give a shit about
the fate of Syrians or any other Arabs or people of color AS LONG AS they
don't bother the United States. And that means he has no problem with the
continued brutal rule of Assad or previously of Gaddafi or Saddam Hussein
or the onslaught of the Bosnian Serbs. For none of them (George Bush's lies
notwithstanding) posed any threat whatsoever to the US, whereas any
alternative would be an unknown quantity (as you, Tom Quinn, yourself
chimed in with in regards to "Islamic fundamentalism" in a previous post
regarding Syria). So Ron Paul -- along with others including antiwar.com
which you also point to! -- who you accurately describe as "self avowed
right wingers," are perfectly happy to ignore untold suffering be it in
Syria, the DRC, Burma.... anywhere that doesn't border on the US (or
involve Al-Qaida since they proved their ability to pilot jumbo jets). And
whose opposition (which we all share) to the US aiding Israel has
everything to do with antisemitism and nothing to do with the fate of the
Palestinians any more than caring for the Syrians.

Of course if I wanted to insult your intelligence I could go on to "point
out" that Clinton's intervention in Yugoslavia or both Bush's wars against
Saddam Hussein also had nothing to do with genuine sympathy for the
suffering of those peoples. Please get it through your head that supporters
of the Syrian (Libyan, Palestinian....) revolution who write on this list
did not get their marching orders from any of these liberal (or not so
liberal) imperialists, and in most cases were active or vocally opposed to
these regimes well before the imperialists undertook (or in the case of
Syria, didn't undertake) "humanitarian intervention." The difference is
that we didn't feel a burning need to switch sides at the moment the
imperialists switched sides (at least verbally). So let's stop talking
about the "imperialist intervention" that hasn't even happened and probably
won't (at least until Assad is on his last leg and they want to influence
which faction then takes power). Let's talk about what we can do to support
revolutions taking place in a number of Arab countries, rather than leaving
intervention to the imperialists so that we'll have something new to protest.

- Jeff


>http://original.antiwar.com/justin/2011/03/22/liberals-march-to-war/
John Obrien
2012-07-11 17:51:39 UTC
Permalink
Comrade Jeff,

Your latest post below states - the imperialists intervention that hasn't even happened?

leaving aside the actual financial attacks and political attacks taking place by these imperialists -
and their proclamations stating their "rights" to intervene in Syria (which I see as intervention)

what do you suggest to support a socialist revolution in Syria and elsewhere?

I am not interested in giving support or funds to some Islamic group that wants to cooperate
with these imperialist nations and their lackeys and support capitalism.


Is there a Syrian socialist group you seek support for?







> Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2012 19:02:17 +0200
> From: meisner at xs4all.nl
> Subject: Re: [Marxism] North Star shows the way to imperialist intervention

>

So let's stop talking
> about the "imperialist intervention" that hasn't even happened and probably
> won't (at least until Assad is on his last leg and they want to influence
> which faction then takes power). Let's talk about what we can do to support
> revolutions taking place in a number of Arab countries, rather than leaving
> intervention to the imperialists so that we'll have something new to protest.
>
> - Jeff
>
>
> >http://original.antiwar.com/justin/2011/03/22/liberals-march-to-war/
>
>
> ________________________________________________
> Send list submissions to: Marxism at greenhouse.economics.utah.edu
> Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/causecollector%40msn.com
Jeff
2012-07-11 18:13:02 UTC
Permalink
I don't have time to write much now, nor have I heard any new arguments,
but here's a quick answer to your questions:

At 10:51 11-07-12 -0700, John Obrien wrote:
>
>Comrade Jeff,
>.....
>what do you suggest to support a socialist revolution in Syria and elsewhere?

Well let's see. The best road toward socialist revolution in Syria (which
may or may not happen) would be to support the DEMOCRATIC revolution, every
bit as much as the October revolution was preceded by the February
revolution which got rid of the Czar but didn't lead toward socialism itself.

Or the other obvious answer, of course, is that there's no reason the death
of 15,000+ Syrians and the jailing and torturing of so many others can't be
addressed without a concrete plan for socialist revolution. Or am I just
too sentimental?

>I am not interested in giving support or funds to some Islamic group

Who was talking about supporting some group, Islamic or otherwise? I was
talking about supporting the revolution and hopefully the more progressive
elements will come to the fore, but if not I'm not going to apologize. Any
more than I apologize for having supported the Egyptian revolution which
has brought an Islamicist to power, or more correctly to the presidency,
with Mubarek's military still in control. Should I have apologized for
supporting the February revolution if the October revolution had
subsequently failed?

>Is there a Syrian socialist group you seek support for?

There certainly have been various Syrian left groups in the past, but
unfortunately I haven't learned anything at all about the internal Syrian
situation from reading the posts on this list. That's the sort of thing I'd
like to see changed....

- Jeff

>
John Obrien
2012-07-11 18:57:37 UTC
Permalink
Comrade Jeff,


Your response to my questions - reflects you know very little about the current
political forces in Syria. But then what are your sources of information that you
are making your calls to support the insurgents? Is it just the corporate media
of CNN, BBC, Al Jazeera - or what?

Your attempting to equate the removal of the Egyptian Mubarak government
with Syria is not accurate. The imperialists SUPPORTED the Mubarak regime.
They now support the current military regime - as they did under Mubarak.
They never engaged in efforts, they are now doing against the Assad regime.
[The events are still unfolding in Egypt with the new president and his challenge
to the military regime over having a parliament.]

And your trying to compare the Russian 1905/1917 Revolutions and the forces
involved in those revolutions with the current Syrian situation - also does not
compare, in my opinion.

Again, I welcome the Syrian people removing Bashar al-Assad and see some
positive signs of this happening, without the imperialist forces being in charge.
But I oppose the CIA led groupings and individuals featured on the corporate
media coverage. This includes the NGO's that are under capitalist control and
seen in interviews seeking imperialists intervention.

Be concrete - either give the names of the Syrian left groups we should be
aiding and supporting - or be like most on this list (not knowing the current
situation and players in the Syrian conflict) and stop calling for support for
the U. S. government and its partners intervening.

This thread all started with Pham Binh being wrong in giving support
to forces that are not socialist and reactionary. It would be best to return
to the focus on Pham Binh and his response to the legitimate criticism against
his statements that started this thread. Perhaps Pham has more information
on these Syrian groups that he seeks support for, than Jeff? But I doubt it.
I believe Pham's sources are the same corporate media (CNN, etc.), that were
cheer leaders for the 2003 Iraq Invasion.







> Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2012 20:13:02 +0200
> From: meisner at xs4all.nl
> Subject: Re: [Marxism] North Star shows the way to imperialist intervention

>
>


> >
> >Comrade Jeff,
> >.....
> >what do you suggest to support a socialist revolution in Syria and elsewhere?
>
> Well let's see. The best road toward socialist revolution in Syria (which
> may or may not happen) would be to support the DEMOCRATIC revolution, every
> bit as much as the October revolution was preceded by the February
> revolution which got rid of the Czar but didn't lead toward socialism itself.
>
> >Is there a Syrian socialist group you seek support for?
>
> There certainly have been various Syrian left groups in the past, but
> unfortunately I haven't learned anything at all about the internal Syrian
> situation from reading the posts on this list. That's the sort of thing I'd
> like to see changed....
>
> - Jeff
>
> >
>
> ________________________________________________
> Send list submissions to: Marxism at greenhouse.economics.utah.edu
> Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/causecollector%40msn.com
Tom Quinn
2012-07-11 19:21:16 UTC
Permalink
right, and who advocated supporting foreign imperialist intervention
there? Not the Bolsheviks.

On Wed, Jul 11, 2012 at 11:57 AM, John Obrien <causecollector at msn.com> wrote:

> And your trying to compare the Russian 1905/1917 Revolutions and the forces
> involved in those revolutions with the current Syrian situation - also does not
> compare, in my opinion.
>
Tom Quinn
2012-07-11 19:14:33 UTC
Permalink
That's fine, but who gives a shit about what Paul's motives are? So
if the liberals have real "Wilsonian" humanitarian motives we should
support them? I don't think so. and guess what? the Syrians and the
Arabs actually aren't bothering the United States, neither were the
Vietnamese, neither was Saddam. I agree with Jeff on one thing,
however, no to imperialist intervention in Syria and the Middle East.

On Wed, Jul 11, 2012 at 10:02 AM, Jeff <meisner at xs4all.nl> wrote:

>
> Excuse me, but the outlook of Ron Paul is that he doesn't give a shit about
> the fate of Syrians or any other Arabs or people of color AS LONG AS they
> don't bother the United States. And that means he has no problem with the
> continued brutal rule of Assad or previously of Gaddafi or Saddam Hussein
> or the onslaught of the Bosnian Serbs.
Clay Claibirne
2012-07-09 05:30:07 UTC
Permalink
On 7/8/2012 6:32 PM, Andrew Pollack wrote:
> Pham himself calls
> anti-intervention a counterrevolutionary position.
I don't claim to speak for Pham but I have said and will continue to say
that many anti-interventionists [with respect of the Libyan struggle]
have gone on to be counter-revolutionary with respect of the Libyan
Revolution. I do not consider that I am labeling anyone and certainly
not characterizing their position with regards to all revolutions.

I am merely noting that many who opposed NATO support for the struggle
against Qaddafi, have now adopted a negative attitude towards
developments in Libya. They continue to repeat Qaddafi misinformation,
they support and spread new misinformation created by the bourgeois
press about the Libyan revolution, they generally ignore or belittle
positive developments and exaggerate any negative developments. They are
quick to demand that the workers are disarmed [disband revolutionary
brigades], and while they think the revolution in Libya was "hi-jacked"
they don't speak to any possible honest elements about how to take it back.

RT is a perfect example of what I have been talking about and I will
take on their coverage of the Libyan election in my next blog.
Tom Quinn
2012-07-09 20:59:25 UTC
Permalink
It's one thing to say that the oppressed in a country have a right to
ask for help from whomever they think they can get it, like say the
Irish in 1916, that it's understandable they might do that etc. and
not a basis for denouncing them as reactionaries as stooges of
imperialism (German, American or otherwise), the flip side of the
error attributed to Pham, but it's quite another to actually support
that going so far as to whip up chauvinist demogoguery (albeit 'left
wing') against those who oppose it on Rrrrevolutionary bases. As a
matter of moral and political reasoning, I can only see that in the
most extreme situation like with Hitler in World War 2, although I
know there are those here who would disagree with that. During
World War I, some of the social patriots actually used arguments like
this, that Germany was an advanced bourgois democratic country that
was liberating the downtrodden oppressed people of Russia who were
living in semi-feudal conditions and that leftists who opposed that
were not only unpatriotic, but counter revolutionary as well and of
course we oppose the German capitalists but in this situation we can't
use that as a pretext to assist our class brothers in Russia (of
course, when the Soviets triumphed that *class solidarity* came to an
end)

Moreover, as someone who spent an extended period in Syria over thirty
years ago, I would say watch what you wish for. Presently a secular,
psuedo-Soviet like regime exists. What will replace it, Islamic
fundamentalism? Yes, this issue is for the Syrian people to decide,
but I wouldn't run around holding forth about what the outcome should
be and whipping up interventionist hysteria unless I really, really,
knew what I was talking about. Reading a bunch of articles and being
full of oneself as a marxist doesn't necessarily make one an expert,
although this know it all aspiring "think tank" mentality seems to go
with the vanguardist attitude.

On Sat, Jul 7, 2012 at 2:51 PM, Andrew Pollack <acpollack2 at gmail.com> wrote:

> All proportions guarded, I had one of those
> Lenin-reading-Vorwarts-in-August moments. Did Pham REALLY say these
> counterrevolutionary things?
> http://www.thenorthstar.info/?p=1097
> Unfortunately, he did.
Craig Brozefsky
2012-07-09 21:44:08 UTC
Permalink
Tom Quinn <tomcod3 at gmail.com> writes:

> knew what I was talking about. Reading a bunch of articles and being
> full of oneself as a marxist doesn't necessarily make one an expert,
> although this know it all aspiring "think tank" mentality seems to go
> with the vanguardist attitude.

It's not only the marxist vanguardists that do this. I have seen
community organizers of all stripes do it as well. There is a limiting
effect for the community organizer, in that they often have rather
contained scopes for action, and more immediate feedback. The
vanguardist never does, and thus the limit becomes their own
self-awareness -- a weak force.

My own experience, manifesting it, was/is driven by horror, a feeling of
powerlessness, and the crystalization of my ideas into "reality" and
imagining I had a grasp of what was "really" going on. I felt justified
in applying tough love to those who were in the mist, or duped. Since I
could have no physical effect, acting out in writing and arguments let
me feel personal power in the deployment of my intellect, and to get
visceral joy from the sharpness of my sword.

Human, all too human, and not just marxist or leftist.

--
Craig Brozefsky <craig at red-bean.com>
Premature reification is the root of all evil
Ken Hiebert
2012-07-10 15:02:33 UTC
Permalink
This is also a response to North Star shows the way to imperialist intervention.
I am not overly concerned with what label people wish to put on Pham Binh. He is quite capable of speaking in his own defence. But there may be a bigger question behind this. if we label PB "counter-revlutionary" because of his stance on Libya, what do we say about the large number of Libyans who welcomed the imperialist intervention? I know how some people have answered this question. Just google Nato Rats and you'll see what I am talking about.

It is easy to write off whole populations because of disagreements with them. Let me start a list.
Tibetans
Kurds
Eastern Europeans
Citizens of Leningrad who voted to return to the name St. Petersburg.
People in China who erected the Goddess of Democracy. To me it looks suspiciously like the Statue of Liberty.

Each time we write off another population, we are more alone in the world. (I am using "we" to mean the left in general and not necessarily anyone on this list.) We still have the task of trying to connect with them. I don't think we are self-important if we believe we might have some political insights that may help them. This does not require us to hide our disagreements with them, but it means we have to look for some common ground from which to start a discussion.

For example, Iraq, 2003. It quickly became apparent that many Iraqis were not opposed to the imperialist intervention. This was not because they had illusions as to what the imperialists wanted. Many of them we simply happy to see Saddam Hussein gone. Sections of the left who were "soft" on Hussein had little basis to connect with Iraqis. Those sections of the left that made clear their opposition to Hussein had a starting point to connect with Iraqis. This was not unrealistic. In Vancouver we were in touch with Iraqis and so at one remove we were in touch with people in Iraq.
As I say, we do not have to agree with them. In fact, based on the experience since 2003, we can argue that we were right to oppose imperialist intervention. Iraq is so damaged by the imperialist intervention that the "Arab Spring" has by-passed Iraq.

We can be reminded that we small. (And mocked because of that as well.) But we are not entirely on the sidelines. Because he was careful how he addressed the Libyan opposition, Gilbert Achcar has had some possibility of connecting with the Syrian opposition. Last fall he was able to address a meeting of oppositionists in Sweden and made a case against calling for imperialist intervention. Of, course that was last October and the situation is very fluid.
By comparison, there is no indication of any connection between insurgent Syrians and the Cuban Communist Party or the PSUV led by Hugo Chavez. Based on their public pronouncements, it is hard to believe that they care at all about connecting with Libyans or with Syrians beyond the ruling circles. The closing of the Venezuelan embassy in Libya was just the icing on the cake. There is lots happening in Libya and the influence of Venezuela has been reduced by the absence of any diplomats.

People in Libya and Syria are autonomous. They don't have to agree with us and we don't have to agree with them. But we should look for every opportunity to reach out to them.

ken h
Angelus Novus
2012-07-11 17:14:37 UTC
Permalink
Shane Mage wrote:

> the extermination bombings of German cities
from Hamburg to Dresden

Come on, don't discredit your broader point by adopting this Neo-Nazi phraseology.? Credible studies indicate that 25,000 died in Dresden, a far cry from the 500,000 claimed by the Nazis, or the figure of the 202,400 offered by the Holocaust denier David Irving.

Hiroshima and Nagasaki were far more monstrous allied war crimes.??
Shane Mage
2012-07-11 17:40:13 UTC
Permalink
On Jul 11, 2012, at 1:14 PM, Angelus Novus wrote:
>
>> the extermination bombings of German cities
> from Hamburg to Dresden
>
> Come on, don't discredit your broader point by adopting this Neo-
> Nazi phraseology. Credible studies indicate that 25,000 died in
> Dresden, a far cry from the 500,000 claimed by the Nazis, or the
> figure of the 202,400 offered by the Holocaust denier David Irving.
>
I play no numbers game. If in one night "only" 25,000 were
exterminated is that less monstrous (how many were slaughtered at
Srebrenica?)?

> Hiroshima and Nagasaki were far more monstrous allied war crimes.

If numbers are what matters, Tokyo was more monstrous.





Shane Mage

"Thunderbolt steers all things." Herakleitos of Ephesos, fr. 64
Angelus Novus
2012-07-11 18:02:01 UTC
Permalink
Shane Mage wrote:

> I play no numbers game.

Then your use of the term extermination is merely for moral effect and has no analytical content.?


Then every time somebody gets shot in a crime of passion or in a mugging, it's an act of "extermination."

The point is, no act of genocide took place during the bombing of Dresden.? Dresden was a strategic city and accordingly a target of allied bombing.? That civilians died is of course horrible, but its in no way comparable to the Holocaust, neither in terms of numbers nor of intent, unless you want to engage in the obscene intellectual exercise of trying to find a "rational" aim behind the death camps.
John Obrien
2012-07-11 18:13:54 UTC
Permalink
The City of Dresden was NOT a justified strategic military site on the nights of that mass bombing.

It was wrong - and not necessary in efforts to defeat Nazi Germany.


I changed this subject heading - so it is not confused with the Syrian intervention thread.





> Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2012 19:02:01 +0100
> From: fuerdenkommunismus at yahoo.com
> Subject: Re: [Marxism] North Star shows the way to imperialist intervention
>
>
>
>
> The point is, no act of genocide took place during the bombing of Dresden. Dresden was a strategic city and accordingly a target of allied bombing. That civilians died is of course horrible, but its in no way comparable to the Holocaust, neither in terms of numbers nor of intent, unless you want to engage in the obscene intellectual exercise of trying to find a "rational" aim behind the death camps.
>
> ________________________________________________
John Wesley
2012-07-11 18:20:14 UTC
Permalink
Supposedly, Dresden was hit as Churchill's revenge for Coventry ?? He was quite aware that it?? held nothing of strategic importance.
Mike G.

El pueblo armado jamas sera aplastado!


________________________________
From: John Obrien <causecollector at msn.com>
To: Mr. Goodman <godisamethodist at yahoo.com>
Sent: Wednesday, July 11, 2012 1:13 PM
Subject: [Marxism] Dresden Bombing

======================================================================
Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message.
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The City of Dresden was NOT a justified strategic military site on the nights of that mass bombing.

It was wrong - and not necessary in efforts to defeat Nazi Germany.


I changed this subject heading - so it is not confused with the Syrian intervention thread.





> Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2012 19:02:01 +0100
> From: fuerdenkommunismus at yahoo.com
> Subject: Re: [Marxism] North Star shows the way to imperialist intervention
>
>
>
>
> The point is, no act of genocide took place during the bombing of Dresden.? Dresden was a strategic city and accordingly a target of allied bombing.? That civilians died is of course horrible, but its in no way comparable to the Holocaust, neither in terms of numbers nor of intent, unless you want to engage in the obscene intellectual exercise of trying to find a "rational" aim behind the death camps.
>
> ________________________________________________

??? ??? ??? ? ??? ??? ?
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Andrew Pollack
2012-07-11 18:58:42 UTC
Permalink
>
> See also Mandel's "The Meaning of the Second World War" on the consciously
> reactionary political perspective behind saturation bombing -- and the
> boomerang effect on German working class consciousness.


And good lord, hasn't anyone on this list read "Slaughterhouse-Five"?!
Tom Quinn
2012-07-11 19:16:47 UTC
Permalink
Really, and there was also an excellent movie of it.

On Wed, Jul 11, 2012 at 11:58 AM, Andrew Pollack <acpollack2 at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> And good lord, hasn't anyone on this list read "Slaughterhouse-Five"?!
>
John Wesley
2012-07-11 20:02:38 UTC
Permalink
That's right -- Schlachthof 5!
?
Yes, Churchill had a few faults.? Needless to say, he wasn't the divinity that the American and British ruling classes?always painted him to be.
?
Mike G

El pueblo armado jamas sera aplastado!


________________________________
From: Tom Quinn <tomcod3 at gmail.com>
To: Mr. Goodman <godisamethodist at yahoo.com>
Sent: Wednesday, July 11, 2012 2:16 PM
Subject: Re: [Marxism] Dresden Bombing

======================================================================
Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message.
======================================================================


Really, and there was also an excellent movie of it.

On Wed, Jul 11, 2012 at 11:58 AM, Andrew Pollack <acpollack2 at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> And good lord, hasn't anyone on this list read "Slaughterhouse-Five"?!
>

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Shane Mage
2012-07-11 20:57:06 UTC
Permalink
On Jul 11, 2012, at 4:02 PM, John Wesley wrote:
> Churchill...wasn't the divinity that the American and British
> ruling classes always painted him to be.

But he was indeed the imperialist arch-villain that socialists and
communists always knew him to be.





Shane Mage

"L'apr?s-vie, c'est une auberge espagnole. L'on n'y trouve que ce
qu'on a apport?."

Bardo Thodol
John Obrien
2012-07-11 21:47:44 UTC
Permalink
Being from an Irish Republican background, I have always been in conflict
with my hatred of Winston Churchill for his imperialist murderous actions
as the person who ordered the use of poison gas on Iraqis to put down
their revolt after WWI and his policies in Ireland that were no better.

Yet I am of the opinion that giving aid to the British air forces prior to Pearl
Harbor during the period known as the Battle For Britain, was important in
the defeat of Nazi Germany.

While understanding the then Trotskyist groups basic position of only supporting
the Soviet Union and some left wing partisans who fought the Axis in WWII,
as compared to the CPUSA swing in positions, that gave total uncritical support
to US capitalism, even in the racist interment of Japanese Americans (which
I find unjustifiable) - the Air Battle For Britain and the volunteers from several
nations that aided the British Air Forces - has remained an exception to the rule
of only aiding the Soviet forces, from my perspective.

With understanding the history of WWII (and the major decisive Soviet battles
in Stalingrad and Kursk) - how should one view the Battle of Britain, when that
nation's air force stood alone in fighting the Nazi air force. I believe the support
given to that nation's air force, in pilots (including volunteers and not just assigned),
equipment and supplies - was a good thing.

Does anyone on this list know the position of the British Communist Party on
the Battle for Britain (prior to the Nazi invasion of the Soviet Union?) - both
during the actual time and then later in review? Or of the CPUSA? Obviously
Joseph Stalin said nothing publicly, so curious on what others on this list think
about the Battle For Britain - and on what CP'ers actually did during that battle?



> Subject: Re: [Marxism] Dresden Bombing

>
> as a British imperialist
>
>
> On Jul 11, 2012, at 4:02 PM, John Wesley wrote:
> > Churchill...wasn't the divinity that the American and British
> > ruling classes always painted him to be.
>
> But he was indeed the imperialist arch-villain that socialists and
> communists always knew him to be.
>
> Shane Mage
John Wesley
2012-07-12 09:34:09 UTC
Permalink
Just look at his virulent hostility toward the Irish and their quest for autonomy, as an example.


El pueblo armado jamas sera aplastado!


________________________________
From: Shane Mage <shmage at pipeline.com>
To: Mr. Goodman <godisamethodist at yahoo.com>
Sent: Wednesday, July 11, 2012 3:57 PM
Subject: Re: [Marxism] Dresden Bombing

======================================================================
Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message.
======================================================================



On Jul 11, 2012, at 4:02 PM, John Wesley wrote:
>? Churchill...wasn't the divinity that the American and British ruling classes always painted him to be.

But he was indeed the imperialist arch-villain that socialists and communists always knew him to be.





Shane Mage

"L'apr?s-vie, c'est une auberge espagnole. L'on n'y trouve que ce qu'on a apport?."

Bardo Thodol




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Joseph Catron
2012-07-12 10:06:44 UTC
Permalink
On Thu, Jul 12, 2012 at 12:34 PM, John Wesley <godisamethodist at yahoo.com>wrote:

Just look at his virulent hostility toward the Irish and their quest for
> autonomy, as an example.
>

Or his responsibility for the ethnic cleansing of 700,000 Palestinians, the
starvation of up to four million Bengalis, etc., etc.

--
"Hige sceal ?e heardra, heorte ?e cenre, mod sceal ?e mare, ?e ure m?gen
lytla?."
Shane Mage
2012-07-11 18:51:42 UTC
Permalink
> Dresden was a strategic city and accordingly a target of allied
> bombing.

The war was both strategically and tactically over. The bombing had
and could have no strategic rationale. So what was its intent, if not
genocidal (ie., to kill Germans simply because they were Germans)?




Shane Mage

"Thunderbolt steers all things." Herakleitos of Ephesos, fr. 64
Angelus Novus
2012-07-11 18:21:38 UTC
Permalink
John Obrien wrote:

> The City of Dresden was NOT a justified strategic military site on the nights of that mass bombing.


Have you read Frederick Taylor's book?? It's not as cut and dried.? Most of the arguments about "innocent Dresden" are inherited from David Irving's book, which is decades out of date, and thoroughly discredited.


From Wikipedia:

Dresden was Germany's seventh-largest city and, according to the RAF at the time, the largest remaining unbombed built-up area.[25] Taylor writes that an official 1942 guide to the city described it as "one of the foremost industrial locations of the Reich" and in 1944, the German Army High Command's Weapons Office listed 127 medium-to-large factories and workshops that were supplying the army with materiel.[26] The contribution to the Nazi war effort may not have been as significant as the planners thought.[27]
The US Air Force Historical Division wrote a report in response to the international concern about the bombing, which was classified until December 1978.[28] This said that there were 110 factories and 50,000 workers in the city
supporting the German war effort at the time of the raid.[29] According to the report, there were aircraft components factories; a poison gas factory (Chemische Fabrik Goye and Company); an anti-aircraft and field gun factory (Lehman); an optical goods factory (Zeiss Ikon AG); as well as factories producing electrical and X-ray apparatus (Koch & Sterzel AG); gears and differentials (Saxoniswerke); and electric gauges (Gebr?der Bassler). It also said there were barracks, hutted camps, and a munitions storage depot.[30]
The USAF report also states that two of Dresden's traffic routes were of military importance: north-south from Germany to Czechoslovakia, and east-west along the central European uplands.[31] The city was at the junction of the Berlin-Prague-Vienna railway line, as well as the Munich-Breslau, and Hamburg-Leipzig.[31] Colonel Harold E. Cook, a US POW held in the Friedrichstadt marshaling yard the night before the attacks, later said that "I saw
with my own eyes that Dresden was an armed camp: thousands of German
troops, tanks and artillery and miles of freight cars loaded with
supplies supporting and transporting German logistics towards the east to meet the Russians."[32]"
Louis Proyect
2012-07-11 18:35:07 UTC
Permalink
On 7/11/2012 2:21 PM, Angelus Novus wrote:
> Have you read Frederick Taylor's book? It's not as cut and
> dried. Most of the arguments about "innocent Dresden" are
> inherited from David Irving's book, which is decades out of
> date, and thoroughly discredited.
>

Most of us know about Dresden from Howard Zinn:

Italy had bombed cities in the Ethiopian war; Italy and Germany
had bombed civilians in the Spanish Civil War; at the start of
World War II German planes dropped bombs on Rotterdam in Holland,
Coventry in England, and elsewhere. Roosevelt had described these
as "inhuman barbarism that has profoundly shocked the conscience
of humanity."

These German bombings were very small compared with the British
and American bombings of German cities. In January 1943 the Allies
met at Casablanca and agreed on large-scale air attacks to achieve
"the destruction and dislocation of the German military,
industrial and economic system and the undermining of the morale
of the German people to the point where their capacity for armed
resistance is fatally weakened." And so, the saturation bombing of
German cities began- with thousand-plane raids on Cologne, Essen,
Frankfurt, Hamburg. The English flew at night with no pretense of
aiming at "military" targets; the Americans flew in the daytime
and pretended precision, but bombing from high altitudes made that
impossible. The climax of this terror bombing was the bombing of
Dresden in early 1945, in which the tremendous heat generated by
the bombs created a vacuum into which fire leaped swiftly in a
great firestorm through the city. More than 100,000 died in
Dresden. (Winston Churchill, in his wartime memoirs, confined
himself to this account of the incident: "We made a heavy raid in
the latter month on Dresden, then a center of communication of
Germany's Eastern Front.")
John Obrien
2012-07-11 19:25:51 UTC
Permalink
My last name is O'Brien.

And I never considered David Irving as a legitimate historical source.
Or do I consider Frederick Taylor's work if he cites the German Army Weapons Office that exagerated its actual status
and the RAF and US air forces, which were major participants in these bombings, and of course would try to cover up,
as the chief arguments for the MASS bombing of all of Dresden and not any separate pin point aerial bombing.

The 1945 City of Dresden bombings by the Allied air forces served no military purpose, but to inflict
suffering on German civilians. Not all Dresden occupants were Nazis, especially the children.

There was nothing in the city of Dresden in 1945, that could alter the course of that war.



>
>
>
>
> John Obrien wrote:
>
> > The City of Dresden was NOT a justified strategic military site on the nights of that mass bombing.
>
>
> Have you read Frederick Taylor's book? It's not as cut and dried. Most of the arguments about "innocent Dresden" are inherited from David Irving's book, which is decades out of date, and thoroughly discredited.
>
>
> From Wikipedia:
>
> Dresden was Germany's seventh-largest city and, according to the RAF at the time, the largest remaining unbombed built-up area.[25] Taylor writes that an official 1942 guide to the city described it as "one of the foremost industrial locations of the Reich" and in 1944, the German Army High Command's Weapons Office listed 127 medium-to-large factories and workshops that were supplying the army with materiel.[26] The contribution to the Nazi war effort may not have been as significant as the planners thought.[27]
> The US Air Force Historical Division wrote a report in response to the international concern about the bombing, which was classified until December 1978.[28] This said that there were 110 factories and 50,000 workers in the city
> supporting the German war effort at the time of the raid.[29] According to the report, there were aircraft components factories; a poison gas factory (Chemische Fabrik Goye and Company); an anti-aircraft and field gun factory (Lehman); an optical goods factory (Zeiss Ikon AG); as well as factories producing electrical and X-ray apparatus (Koch & Sterzel AG); gears and differentials (Saxoniswerke); and electric gauges (Gebr?der Bassler). It also said there were barracks, hutted camps, and a munitions storage depot.[30]
> The USAF report also states that two of Dresden's traffic routes were of military importance: north-south from Germany to Czechoslovakia, and east-west along the central European uplands.[31] The city was at the junction of the Berlin-Prague-Vienna railway line, as well as the Munich-Breslau, and Hamburg-Leipzig.[31] Colonel Harold E. Cook, a US POW held in the Friedrichstadt marshaling yard the night before the attacks, later said that "I saw
> with my own eyes that Dresden was an armed camp: thousands of German
> troops, tanks and artillery and miles of freight cars loaded with
> supplies supporting and transporting German logistics towards the east to meet the Russians."[32]"
>
> ________________________________________________
William Quimby
2012-07-11 21:30:07 UTC
Permalink
I seem to recall reading that there may have been a desire on the part
of war planners (and Churchill) to demonstrate to the Russians 1) our
willingness to help their advance (by closing down major re-supply
routes to the Eastern front) and 2) the power of allied bombing, should
Stalin be thinking about going beyond Berlin.

Probably all conjecture.

- Bill

On 07/11/2012 3:25 PM, John O'Brien wrote:

> The 1945 City of Dresden bombings by the Allied air forces served no
> military purpose, but to inflict suffering on German civilians. Not
> all Dresden occupants were Nazis, especially the children.
Angelus Novus
2012-07-11 18:58:25 UTC
Permalink
Louis Proyect:

> Most of us know about Dresden from Howard Zinn

Zinn is a moral and intellectual giant, and one of my heroes, but his citation of the figure of 100,000 is just wrong.

Not that I'm trying to make a numbers game out of it.? The bombing of civilians is a crime, but the point is that Dresden was not an act of "extermination" (the term Shane used), and given the strategic considerations that motivated it, is not comparable to the Holocaust, which had no other motivation other than the desire to exterminate Jews.? There was no comparable plan on the side of the Allies to exterminate Germans as a race.? Not even by Morgenthau.

Every February, a broad leftist coalition spanning everybody from Die Linke to anarchists to local Antifa groups gathers in Dresden to prevent the march of Neo-Nazis who misuse the bombing of Dresden to advance their own agenda, and referring to it as an act of "extermination" is one of the main tricks the Nazis use.? Leftists should not adopt this kind of language.

I didn't want to sidetrack the discussion about Libya, so I'll stop for now.
Daniel Rocha
2012-07-11 19:55:22 UTC
Permalink
The facts are there. There was a genocide in Dresden and that should not be
forgotten along with any other massacre that we can ever remember. The
leftists should not, then, avoid this kind of language, because not using
it,] is ignoring the evils caused, in this case, by the capital. The
difference here, though, in the nazi use of the tragedy to justify more
criminal bloodbath.

This is similar to not criticizing Israel for its nearly 60 year long
continuous massacre of Palestinians, because that would hurt the suffering
the Jews along history and the memory of the Holocaust (as if the Holocaust
was any different in scale or tragedy from any other, including those that
happened to the Roma, Slavs and Communists in the same concentration camps
of nazi germany)

2012/7/11 Angelus Novus <fuerdenkommunismus at yahoo.com>

> ======================================================================
> Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message.
> ======================================================================
> Leftists should not adopt this kind of language.
>
> Daniel Rocha - RJ
danieldiniz at gmail.com
Alan Bradley
2012-07-11 22:04:47 UTC
Permalink
From: Tom Quinn
> some huge moral imperative of the kind that existed in World War 2.

I presume you mean throwing the British out of India.
Paul Flewers
2012-07-12 11:51:24 UTC
Permalink
John O'Brien asked: 'Does anyone on this list know the position of the
British Communist Party on the Battle for Britain (prior to the Nazi
invasion of the Soviet Union?) -- both during the actual time and then
later in review?'

The CPGB shifted into an anti-war position in October 1939 after
Moscow realised that the 'war on two fronts' promoted by the Communist
parties -- that is, supporting the war against Hitler whilst
maintaining political opposition to the British, French, etc,
governments, outlined in CPGB General Secretary Harry Pollitt's
pamphlet _How To Win the War_ -- did not correspond with the
necessities of the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact. There was some opposition
within the CPGB's CC about this; Pollitt opposed the new anti-war line
at the CC meeting where it was discussed, but there was no actual
split in the party. Other parties changed their line accordingly, some
with more and and some with less dissidence.

The new party line denounced the war as imperialist, and until the
fall of France in June 1940 actually had a rather pro-German feel:
that Britain and France were more responsible for the war than
Germany. After then, Britain and Germany were held as equally
responsible. I've always thought that the CPGB's line was essentially
pacifist and abstentionist; only once did it, just after the fall of
France, call for a workers' defence of Britain, very similar to the
Trotskyist Proletarian Military Policy, and then quickly dropped it.
The party did support strikes and other working-class activity. I've
scanned some CPGB material for the Marxist Internet Archive for this
period, which I hope to prepare fairly soon.

I scanned and annotated a key CPGB pamphlet, Rajani Palme Dutt's _Why
This War?_ for the MIA <
http://www.marxists.org/archive/dutt/1939/11/01.htm >. I don't have a
copy of Pollitt's _How To Win the War_, but if I can get hold of one
I'll scan it for the MIA.

Pollitt subsequently publicly recanted his 'reservations' about the
new line, but privately always felt that he was right to have opposed
it. The CPGB historian Monty Johnstone felt that Pollitt should have
kept up his support for the superseded line and tried to pull the
party with him. This, I feel, was unrealistic as had the party done
this it would have lost its Moscow franchise.

Books on the subject are _1939: The Communist Party and the War_
(Lawrence and Wishart, 1984), a report on a discussion by CPGB
members; Kevin Morgan, _Against Fascism and War_ (Manchester Uni
Press, 1989), a very detailed academic account; and Sam Bornstein and
Al Richardson, _Two Steps Back_ (Socialist Platform, no date), a
Trotskyist analysis. The complete minutes of the CPGB CC meeting where
the line changed are in F King and G Matthews, _About Turn_ (Lawrence
and Wishart, 1990).

Paul F
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