Discussion:
Moderators' note: posting under your real name
(too old to reply)
Les Schaffer
2014-10-17 14:50:00 UTC
Permalink
we'll probably get a lot of grumbling for this, bbbbbut.

You should not post to marxmail using your real name if you are
concerned about various people and organizations seeking and finding
such posts on the web. Our email list is archived at the U of Utah,
GMANE, mail-archive.com, and probably several others i cannot think of
at the moment. Because our host server at U of Utah is no longer under
our direct control, we have no easy way to remove posts that appear
there. So to convince people that they should sub under a fake name if
they want to avoid name <==> marxism linkage, we have added a warning to
our top header.

enjoy

Les
Jim Farmelant
2014-10-17 15:21:59 UTC
Permalink
As the moderator of the Marxism-Thaxis List (https://lists.riseup.net/www/info/marxism-thaxis), I had that issue crop up at least a couple of times back when were being hosted at the University of Utah. One case involved a Turk who had posted to the list when he was a college student. A decade later, apparently, those old posts were causing him problems in Turkey, so I had to have Hans Ehrbar remove those.

Certainly in the case of Marxmail, there are subscribers who live under repressive regimes, so they need to be careful.

Jim Farmelant
http://independent.academia.edu/JimFarmelant
http://www.foxymath.com
Learn or Review Basic Math


---------- Original Message ----------
From: Les Schaffer via Marxism <marxism at lists.csbs.utah.edu>
Subject: [Marxism] Moderators' note: posting under your real name
Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2014 10:50:00 -0400

======================================================================
Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message.

!!! NOTE: this mail list is publicly archived at the U of Utah. Posts submitted under your real name and archived there can NOT be deleted from the server.!!!
======================================================================


we'll probably get a lot of grumbling for this, bbbbbut.

You should not post to marxmail using your real name if you are
concerned about various people and organizations seeking and finding
such posts on the web. Our email list is archived at the U of Utah,
GMANE, mail-archive.com, and probably several others i cannot think of
at the moment. Because our host server at U of Utah is no longer under
our direct control, we have no easy way to remove posts that appear
there. So to convince people that they should sub under a fake name if
they want to avoid name <==> marxism linkage, we have added a warning to
our top header.

enjoy

Les
____________________________________________________________
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Jeff
2014-10-17 16:53:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by Les Schaffer
You should not post to marxmail using your real name if you are
concerned
Alright, but why don't you just change the header message to simply say
that, rather than jumping to the (non-) possibility of correcting such an
error after it's too late? As a moderator you are instead thinking about
the aspect of the problem which you (formerly) could control. And even then
one should know that anything that ever appears on the public web will
exist in perpetuity, even if removed (for instance, as archived on the Way
Back Machine and elsewhere). Keep that annoying message at the top to the
point and minimally obtrusive (or my preference: put it at the bottom!).

- Jeff


about various people and organizations seeking and finding
Post by Les Schaffer
such posts on the web. Our email list is archived at the U of Utah,
GMANE, mail-archive.com, and probably several others i cannot think of
at the moment. Because our host server at U of Utah is no longer under
our direct control, we have no easy way to remove posts that appear
there. So to convince people that they should sub under a fake name if
they want to avoid name <==> marxism linkage, we have added a warning to
our top header.
enjoy
Les
Joseph Catron
2014-10-17 17:14:58 UTC
Permalink
Any way to embed one of these? (Joke.)

Loading Image...
Loading Image...

But personally, I don't care for the existing header either. It might give
the less tech-savvy the idea that if they're posting to some other list
where the archives *can* easily be scrubbed, they're home free, which is of
course not true.

On Fri, Oct 17, 2014 at 7:53 PM, Jeff via Marxism <
marxism at lists.csbs.utah.edu> wrote:

Keep that annoying message at the top to the
Post by Jeff
point and minimally obtrusive (or my preference: put it at the bottom!).
--
"Hige sceal ?e heardra, heorte ?e cenre, mod sceal ?e mare, ?e ure m?gen
lytla?."
Les Schaffer
2014-10-17 17:20:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by Joseph Catron
Any way to embed one of these? (Joke.)
http://i.imgur.com/LHmD5.jpg
https://s3.amazonaws.com/classmint.img/cbb8ad08-61b7-4e55-b603-f284f8e60042.jpeg
i vote for the first one.... but we've "outlawed" pics to the list.
Post by Joseph Catron
But personally, I don't care for the existing header either. It might give
the less tech-savvy the idea that if they're posting to some other list
where the archives *can* easily be scrubbed, they're home free, which is of
course not true.
come up with something pithy and to the point, i'll use it

Les
Joseph Catron
2014-10-17 17:30:23 UTC
Permalink
How about:

"RULE #2: This list's archives, like the Internet itself, are public and
permanent. Don't post it here or elsewhere if you don't want it online
forever."

"Permanent" and "forever" are kind of lies, of course, but true enough for
our purposes.

On Fri, Oct 17, 2014 at 8:20 PM, Les Schaffer via Marxism <
marxism at lists.csbs.utah.edu> wrote:

come up with something pithy and to the point, i'll use it
--
"Hige sceal ?e heardra, heorte ?e cenre, mod sceal ?e mare, ?e ure m?gen
lytla?."
Les Schaffer
2014-10-17 17:18:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jeff
Alright, but why don't you just change the header message to simply
say that, rather than jumping to the (non-) possibility of correcting
such an error after it's too late?
i think its longer to say 'do not post under your real name if you are
concerned that this posted will be publically archived with your real name'

but if you have a snappy way to say it, by all means pitch it....
Post by Jeff
And even then one should know that anything that ever appears on the
public web will exist in perpetuity, even if removed (for instance, as
archived on the Way Back Machine and elsewhere).
we don't want to go there anymore... we just want people to stop asking
us to pull there posts because of the issue.
Post by Jeff
Keep that annoying message at the top to the point and minimally
obtrusive (or my preference: put it at the bottom!). - Jeff
we want it to be obtrusive for a while. after all the clip all text
worked didnt it??? or did it????


Les
Jeff
2014-10-17 17:22:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by Les Schaffer
... we just want people to stop asking
us to pull there posts because of the issue.
Oh, is that your only motivation? Geez, how many of these requests do you
get every day? I guess you could send them all a form letter or something....
Post by Les Schaffer
but if you have a snappy way to say it, by all means pitch it....
Alright:

======================================================================
1) When replying to a message always clip extraneous text
2) Your name and email address will appear on the web. Consider using an
alias.
======================================================================

- Jeff
Les Schaffer
2014-10-17 17:50:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jeff
Post by Les Schaffer
... we just want people to stop asking
us to pull there posts because of the issue.
Oh, is that your only motivation?
that's our motivation. any further questions?
Post by Jeff
Post by Les Schaffer
but if you have a snappy way to say it, by all means pitch it....
======================================================================
1) When replying to a message always clip extraneous text
2) Your name and email address will appear on the web. Consider using an
alias.
======================================================================
that's pretty good......

Les
Jeff
2014-10-17 17:35:45 UTC
Permalink
Again, THAT ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

versus:

********************************************************************************
1) When replying to a message always clip extraneous text
2) Your name and email address will appear on the web. Consider using an alias.
********************************************************************************
Les Schaffer
2014-10-17 17:59:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jeff
********************************************************************************
1) When replying to a message always clip extraneous text
2) Your name and email address will appear on the web. Consider using an alias.
********************************************************************************
i like the asterisks... trying to decide if i should go with some of
Joseph's generality about posting and archiving....

les
Louis Proyect
2014-10-17 18:05:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by Les Schaffer
i like the asterisks... trying to decide if i should go with some of
Joseph's generality about posting and archiving....
les
I like Joseph's formatting although I am not sure what the "generality"
is a reference to.
Les Schaffer
2014-10-17 18:10:59 UTC
Permalink
yeas and nays?:

********************** POSTING RULES & NOTES **********************
#1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message.
#2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived.
#3 Consider subscribing and posting under an alias if #2 is a concern
*********************************************************************


Les
Gulf Mann
2014-10-17 18:13:16 UTC
Permalink
Yea, although I will defer to your final decision.
Post by Jim Farmelant
======================================================================
Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message.
!!! NOTE: this mail list is publicly archived at the U of Utah. Posts
submitted under your real name and archived there can NOT be deleted from
the server.!!!
======================================================================
********************** POSTING RULES & NOTES **********************
#1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message.
#2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived.
#3 Consider subscribing and posting under an alias if #2 is a concern
*********************************************************************
Les
________________________________________________
Send list submissions to: Marxism at lists.csbs.utah.edu
http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/gulfmann%40gmail.com
Jeff
2014-10-17 18:10:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by Les Schaffer
i like the asterisks... trying to decide if i should go with some of
Joseph's generality about posting and archiving....
How about the message at the bottom point to a page called "List rules and
cautions". In fact that could replace "Send list submissions to:
Marxism at lists.csbs.utah.edu" which is a rather useless instruction (most
people just hit "Reply") and could be included in the page pointed to.

- Jeff
Les Schaffer
2014-10-17 18:17:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jeff
How about the message at the bottom point to a page called "List rules
and cautions".
yep, thought of that too. up top is more in your face...
Post by Jeff
Marxism at lists.csbs.utah.edu" which is a rather useless instruction
(most people just hit "Reply") and could be included in the page
pointed to. - Jeff
agreed

Les
Jeff
2014-10-17 18:19:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by Les Schaffer
Post by Jeff
How about the message at the bottom point to a page called "List rules
and cautions".
yep, thought of that too. up top is more in your face...
But my point was to include the two-line less obtrusive version of the
caution at the top (if you think that's necessary, in order to be "in your
face"), but write up a more complete caution, along with other list rules
and advice that you can't possibly include in each email, and post that on a
webpage. And then at the bottom it would say:

_______________________________________________
List rules and information: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/marxism/Rules.html
Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/

instead of:
Les Schaffer
2014-10-17 18:35:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jim Farmelant
_______________________________________________
List rules and information: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/marxism/Rules.html
we have a page for this here, we can link to that:
http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm (needs modifications)

Les
Jeff
2014-10-17 18:39:30 UTC
Permalink
One more thought:

The caution about not using your real name if you don't want it on the web,
doesn't really need to be told to each person each time they're posting
(let alone each time they're just reading the messages!). And after they've
ignored it once, then it's already sort of too late.

Now, I'm pretty sure that with this list, like most lists, the very first
time a new subscriber posts, that post is automatically moderated. That
helps to prevent a spammer from easily getting on the list and spamming
right away. So do it like this: when you get that first post from a new
subscriber, routinely hold it back and send them an email pointing out
these issues (and other list rules). Then they can still reconsider before
posting it again for real. How about that?

- Jeff
Les Schaffer
2014-10-17 18:53:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jeff
The caution about not using your real name if you don't want it on the web,
doesn't really need to be told to each person each time they're posting
(let alone each time they're just reading the messages!). And after they've
ignored it once, then it's already sort of too late.
we wish that were true for text clipping.... OTOH, could be true for
name/alias....
Post by Jeff
Now, I'm pretty sure that with this list, like most lists, the very first
time a new subscriber posts, that post is automatically moderated. That
helps to prevent a spammer from easily getting on the list and spamming
right away. So do it like this: when you get that first post from a new
subscriber, routinely hold it back and send them an email pointing out
these issues (and other list rules). Then they can still reconsider before
posting it again for real. How about that?
i don't see a way to auto-moderate a new subscriber under Mailman, but i
will look into it. we do auto-generate a message when someone subscribes
and can update that with the rules. but our impression is people don't
pay attention to that message.

Les
Lüko Willms
2014-10-20 09:45:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by Les Schaffer
we do auto-generate a message when someone subscribes
and can update that with the rules. but our impression is people don't
pay attention to that message.
Isn't it that a new subscriber has to confirm that it actually his/her address from which the subscription request did come from?

That is the point in time where the new subscriber could decide to not use the real name and a different email address.

But beware - the NSA and all the rest of the alphabet soup do know your address anyway. The caution is just for regular guys as you and me and maybe your employer who skims the net with a google search.



Cheers,
L?ko Willms
Les Schaffer
2014-10-22 11:32:26 UTC
Permalink
L?ko:

You are correct about the sequence of events. however, to my knowledge, mailman doesn't allow us to customize the confirmation request message, only the welcome message that is sent in response to confirmation. By that time I think people tune out. But lets see if adding a warning in the auto-generated welcome helps.

Les
Post by Lüko Willms
Post by Les Schaffer
we do auto-generate a message when someone subscribes
and can update that with the rules. but our impression is people don't
pay attention to that message.
Isn't it that a new subscriber has to confirm that it actually his/her address from which the subscription request did come from?
That is the point in time where the new subscriber could decide to not use the real name and a different email address.
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